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Specialized Areas of Interest => History: Modern & Ancient => Topic started by: Len on March 09, 2013, 03:31:55 PM

Title: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 09, 2013, 03:31:55 PM
Quote from: guest1
Hi Sha'ul, thanks for your comment very interesting, in my culture(Maori) The ancient history of the Waitaha, says that it was a women that was created before man, from the red clay of the earth, and yes the women where the knowledge holders and teachers, they were often referred to in symbolic terms as the whale(teachers), with dolphins being represented as the students of learning, this is according to the waitaha history's. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Story Of The First Woman

Even The Gods Are Born Of Woman. And red was the clay and gentle the hands that first shaped her. And she gives us life, and in life there is death, and she waits for us at the end, as she was in the beginning.

Mokopuna of mine, children of caring mothers, draw close to the flames and hear of wonders hidden in the mists of Creation...

When the tides rolled back from the land and the skies had cleared, the Sun shone down on a sacred and distant shore to touch the body of a woman of exciting beauty. She was fashioned from the red earth of Kokowai and here clear red skin shone in the Full Moon. She was of the Kurawaka Nation; those with the skin of the first colours of the rainbow. And the ancient ones cared for her.

And it was fortold she whould become Mother of the Nations of the sea, and Mother of the children of the many winds of the oceans. She was Hine Ahu One, first Mother of the land, moulded and shaped by Tane Nui o Rangi. He breathed life into her beautiful body and in her fathered the first of the daughters of time.

And that daughter was Hine Ti Tama, child of the gentle colours of the dawn. And this daughter of the soft light bore the children of her creator, Tane Nui o Rangi. And as they grew she looked for the grandparent who would give them learning and wisdom. So she went to Hine Ahu One and asked who her father was, and her mother replied...

'Ask it of the winds, of the stars, of the posts in the house, of the very air that you breathe. They are of the one who is also your father.'

And Hine Ti Tama understood she was the daughter of her husband Tane Nui o Rangi and in her distress she spoke the karakia that set him free. In the deep sadness that followed she decided to become the keeper of the souls of her children when they died. She left behind her old name. We know her as Hine Nui Te Po, the Guardian of the Dead.

Moko, there is knowledge in the light of the flames. Know that women hold the land for they are of the red earth. Understand women count the generations and tie them to the beginning and the end. And always remember they flow with the Tides of Life.

...Song of Waitaha...
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 09, 2013, 03:32:30 PM
Quote from: guest1
That was beautiful Heremaia Koopu. What an interesting history too! I had to find out more...Seems the history can be traced back 2,000 years. Maybe longer?

"The Waitaha comprised three hapu or extended families: The Kurawaka, The Rakaiwaka and the Pakauwaka. These names describe the three stars that form the well known Belt of Orion, referred to by the Waitaha Teachers of the Wananga as the Pepe o Te Po, or the Moth of the Night. In some cases referred to as the Kupenga o Te Ao or the Fishing Trap of the Universe. Both references are made at different times of the year and for differing purposes.

The "Song of Waitaha" was released to the world by Waitaha elders because of the hate and the prejudice that was being created by the Land Claims of different hapu, who had created themselves recent histories at the expence of the First Nations Peoples long resident in these lands of hopes and dreams. The layers in these lands are composite layers of thousands of years of living in peace."

"For it has been decided it is time for our treasures to be brought into the light."

"We do this for the children, and their children, and all who call this land home."

"We are of Tane Matua, and we follow Rongo Marae Roa, the God of Peace."

"In the WISDOM and aroha (love) of those words, we say: `Let the sacred kete (basket containing sacred knowledge) be opened for the ancestors to speak again. Let the ancient karakia and waiata be heard throughout the land. Welcome to the trails of the peoples of the Nation of Waitaha. May you journey far in peace and understanding."
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 09, 2013, 03:33:27 PM
Quote from: guest1
Hi Diane Ostrander yes the history goes back way further, than modern historians would like to admit, there is a bit of a conspiracy regarding NZ History, something i have researched quite deeply, there is suggestive evidence of Egyptian, Greek, Celtic, hebrew, peoples and many more living here in the distant past, of waitaha, there records state that some of there people were from different continents as waitaha was made of three peoples(Hapu), one of them peoples were a red head tall blue and green eyed race. Its quite funny that i am currently talking about waitaha here, because my research of the kolbrin and waitaha, has lead me to believe that waitaha and NZ are connected to certain parts of The kolbrin.

For instance i notice in the kobrin, the word Kohar used alot in THE BOOK OF SCROLLS

O departed one risen to glory, you are now a released spirit united with your spirit whole, the companionable Kohar, the everlasting one. Arise alive in the Land Beyond the Horizon and journey to the Land of Dawning; the stars accompanying you will sing for joy, while the heavenly signs voice hymns of praise and gladness. You are not far removed from us, it is as if we were in one room divided by a curtain, therefore we are not sorrowful. If we weep it is because we cannot share your joys and because we no longer know your touch.

O everlasting Kohar, take this man of goodness into your eternal embrace, let your life become his life and your breath his breath. He is your own, he is the drop returning to the filled pitcher, the leaf returning to the tree, you are the repository of his incarnations. As you grew there, so he grew here; you are everlastingly whole and he lives in you. If he is not even as you in face, let him enter, hide his faults, for they are not many. For this you were fashioned, for this you came into being, you are the overbody awaiting the returning spirit, and the spirit now comes. You are that which will clothe the newly arrived spirit in heavenly flesh. You are that in which our departed one will express himself.

O Kohar, hear us. Here is your vitalizing essence; before you were incomplete, now you are whole. Draw your own, your compatible one, to you and observe the many likenesses. We send fragrances, that they may spread around you. Now take the eye which will perfect your face, it is the perfecting eye, the eye which sees things as they are. See the fluctuating wraith, is it not beautiful? Does it not come with an aura of fragrance, sweetness filling the air? It has been purged of all impurities, all about it is fragrant. Therefore, grant it your substance, that it may become solid and firm.

O Kohar, long have you awaited the day of fulfillment, the day of your destiny. That day is here, it is now; therefore, take the spirit which is your own and enfold it with your wings. Each to his own and to his own each goes. You and he are bound together with unseverable bonds, each without the other is nothing. Now bear him up, for in that place you are greater than he, for you are the generator. While he rested in the womb you were active, as he grew you grew before him. If he has done wrong, and who among men is guiltless, then in you let the wrong be adjusted. You are his hope, you are his shield and you are his refuge.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin03.htm#THE%20BOOK%20OF%20SCROLLS

When i first read this i was surprised as we also have a very similar word Koha in our maori culture, and i have never seen it out of the context in which we used it for, so i looked up the meaning, and it could well relate to the meaning that the kolbrin is associating with the word, now there is a interesting twist to the Maori language, and that is that it is very closely related to the ancient Aryan language, even closer than ancient greek.

THE ARYAN MAORI

http://archive.org/stream/aryanmaori00treg/aryanmaori00treg_djvu.txt

What is Koha?

Koha? Well, to properly answer this, permit me to offer a quick course in Philosophical Maori 101.

Koha is a Maori word which predated money, but now has become NZ English as has Mana and Aroha, among others, which I will attempt to explain.

In isolation, Koha is a gift brought by the visitor to the people of the land, often food or treasures, and it is part of the process of Manakitanga which defines the realm of hospitality or the sharing of information. The Koha reflects the Mana of both the giver and the recipient. From a very practical standpoint, if visitors came a calling, the host was expected to provide hospitality of food, beds in the communal sleeping hall and appropriate attention and honours – something that could be difficult in lean times when food was scarce, so a visiting party might offer food as Koha. Or perhaps the visitor came from South Island – called in Maori Te Wai Ponamu – the waters (Te Wai) of the treasured greenstone (ponamu), and their gift would be the ponamu greenstone, a taonga – a great treasure*.

Mana is the stature of the person, gained from land, ancestry and works of ones life. In your case, when you present your bio, you are giving an indication of your mana, but the ultimate determination of your mana is in person, when you are thrice greeted and perceived. The first greeting acknowledges your person, the second your soul and the third your spiritual being – God within you, all the spiritual power you carry with you as you walk on this earth. This is difficult to explain in English, because although we all instantly and inherently “read” people when we meet them, we lack language in English to articulate the multiple levels which we in fact instantly perceive. It gets more complicated because unless one is in ones clarity, that reading of the other gets mixed up with ones self. In traditional Maori this was all understood and worked out.

Prior to your talk, you will have been received by us, hence transform from manuhiri (visitor) to tangata whenua (person of the land – whenua means both land and placenta). When you begin to give your talk, you are of the host (of us, and behind us, the first and many subsequent peoples of our valley, with whose blessing we stand on the land), and the people who come to hear you become the manuhiri, the visitors. In your case, you shall transmit information (not feed them) and in acknowledgement of your mana, and reflecting each visitor’s mana, they shall make a koha to you. You give them your knowledge, they acknowledge you with koha. But they are not paying you, even though after the talk, you possess what they have gifted you. Also, by your speaking in our Bard Hall, you will add to its mana, as have speakers before you, and this mana shall embed both in peoples hearts, but also in the very walls of the building. It’s why an ancient abbey feels more sacred that a freshly built new church.

In its purity, the level of koha would vary by each person, reflecting what they can afford, the regard they hold for you and the value they place on your information. Before money the gifts would be either noa (such as food) or a taonga (a treasure, such as carved greenstone). Now it is deemed acceptable to use money. However, the principles of establishing the amount based on mana is not well understood nowadays and to make it simpler, a tradition of setting a recommended amount tends to evolve. Most events at our place seem to be $10 in a bowl at the front door.

This may seem the same as a ticket price, but because it carries with it the ancient traditions of something greater, it has a different character to it. Among other things, we find people who normally command large speaking fees will return multiple times to places like ours with their humble proceeds because the relationship is more refreshing. It’s somehow more balanced. In a curious way, it solves Socrates problem with the sophists who taught for money, not love. With koha you speak for aroha, and koha is gifted out of aroha.

Aroha is the word for love, but it means more than in typical English. My colleague Ruth Makuini Tai writes: The word Aroha holds a premier position within the Maori language of Aotearoa New Zealand. Maori language and practise holds the memory of a time when the force of Aroha was understood and respected by all. Aroha is the creative force behind all dreams. Aroha defines great leadership, ensures personal success, inspires us to go the extra mile. Aroha means Love. However when we explore its roots Aroha yields a profound message about love that is not widely understood.

ARO is thought, life principle, to pay attention, to focus, to concentrate

RO is inner, within, introspection

HA is life force, breath, energy

OHA is generosity, prosperity, abundance, wealth

When people write to you, and sign it Arohanui, they are using the word Aroha and Nui. Nui means large, great, intense, many, plentiful, abundant, important, and openly, in public. So while it might be translated as lots of love, in fact in Maori it means much more

Read Further

http://solari.com/blog/what-is-koha/

There are other connections which i have found, and i look forward to shareing and disscussing them in the coming weeks, months.

The kolbrin kohar sounds like a manifestation reflection of ourselves in a other world(spirit), which helps balance out our phyic being in some way, cause and effect every action has a reaction, thus everything we do in life, has a reaction to our koha, mana, etc, its the teachings related to this side of man, that i find the kolbrin so helpful, such a wonderful book.

I see how the kolbrin meaning, relates to the maori meaning, in a similar way, concidering there is so much more meaning to the word, then published here.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 09, 2013, 03:35:08 PM
Quote from: guest1
I need to read these posts more carefully back home but it's all very fascinating Heremaia. Did you ever find anything about Ramakui or Meruah in your research?
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 09, 2013, 03:36:46 PM
Quote from: guest1
Hi Manuel, Coincidence you asked, Yes, I found lots of relationship to that chapter of the kolbrin to waitaha and NZ, and the name Ramakai possibly to Maori and the pacific region.

He died in the manner of men, though his likeness is that of God. Then they cut him apart, that his body might make fertile the fields, and took away his head, that it might bring them wisdom. His bones they did no paint red, for they were not as those of others.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin05.htm#THE%20BOOK%20OF%20MANUSCRIPTS

The painting of the bones red, similar to waitaha practice.

THE ROCK-PAINTINGS.

It was the people who came with Rakaihautu and their descendants who executed on sheltered cliff-faces the paintings, around the origin of which so much surmise has centered. My informant reckoned that the ancestors of these people had once had a system of writing very unlike English writing or printing, and that they lost much of the knowledge in coming from land to land, but still retained memories of it. These paintings represented their writing after they came to New Zealand, and preserved to them incidents of their history. Only the designs done in black are Waitaha work, and the method of making the paint has bean traditionally handed down. There is a tree called - 149 monoao, which my informant had seen growing at Benmore (near Lake Hawea), and describes as like a macrocarpa, with branches that may grow many feet long and with leaves like matai (black pine). Probaby no other kind of tree in New Zealand contains so much gum or resin (called ware in south, pia in north), and it will burn readily when green. The branches of this tree when burnt, give off a smoke, said my informant, that would speedily turn white clothes black with soot. Screens were erected to direct the smoks against a tipaki (flax mat), and the root was subsequently scraped into an ipu (carved wooden basin). Tarata trees would be chipped and the gum collected, and rautawhiri berries gathered. These berries or seeds were smashed and tightly squeezed into a whitau (flax bag) and hung by the fire, when the oil from them would drip into the ipu. The oil of the weka (woodhen) was also an ingredient, and these four items were mixed in certain proportions, “not too thick nor too thin,” and the result, said my informant, was “an ink that would stand for ever.” The claim that the paint so obtained was indelible is substantiated by the state of preservation of the work, as some of the black paintings are probably over 1,000 years old. The red paintings, continued my informant, were done many generations later than the black, and were the work of Kati-Mamoe, who simply copied the Waitaha figures. The red paint was made out of horu (red ochre, obtained in the streams), and was much the same as that used for preserving the dead. The Waitaha used black for painting, and the red for rubbing on the bodies of the dead, but the Kati-Mamoe used red for both purposes, as also for decorating canoes, etc. The general name whakairo was applied to the rock-paintings, but to distinguish them from canoe and other carvings also so-called, they were more particularly referred to as Te-ana-whakairo (“the cave carvings.”)

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_27_1918/Volume_27,_No._107/Traditions_and_legends._Collected_from_the_natives_of_Murihiku._%28Southland,_New_Zealand%29,_by_H._Beattie,_p_137-161/p1

I looked into the maori meaning of Ramakai

Ra - day/Sun
Ma - White/clear
Kui - Term or address of an elderly maori women

Even within the maori definition of the name, sugest's it was associated with women, and could possibly referr to the mother land, of the sons of Fire, sun people, red heads?.

In olden times, when men lived in the ground, there came the Great One whose name is hidden. Son of Hem, Son of the Sun, Chief of the Guardians of Mysteries, Master of Rites and Spoken Word. Judge of Disputes, Advocate of the Dead, Interpreter of the Gods and Father of Fishermen. From the West, from beyond Mandi, came the Great One arrayed in robes of black linen and wearing a head-dress of red.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin05.htm#THE%20BOOK%20OF%20MANUSCRIPTS

Easter Island Demystified

Names such as Rarotonga (Sun in the South) and Tonga Tapu (South forbidden) only make sense if named by people who came from the North, ie Hawaii. One particular island called Ra'iatea was named after the people already living there. The name means ‘Sun people white' and was noted by Captain Wallis, who visited the island in 1767, to have a high proportion of pale skinned people, many of which had red hair, living on it.

http://www.polynesian-prehistory.com/

The people who came with Nadhi were wise in the ways of the seasons and in the wisdom of the stars. They read the Book of Heaven with understanding. They covered their dead with potter’s clay and hardened it, for it was not their custom to place their dead in boxes.

Those who came with the Great One were cunning craftsmen in stone, they were carvers of wood and ivory. The High God was worshipped with strange light in places of great silences. They paid homage to the huge sleeping beast in the depths of the sea, believing it to bear the Earth on its back; they believed its stirrings plunged lands to destruction. Some said it burrowed beneath them. In Ramakui there was a great city with roads and waterways, and the fields were bounded with walls of stone and channels. In the centre of the land was the great flat-topped Mountain of God.

The city had walls of stone and was decorated with stones of red and black, white shells and feathers. There were heavy green stones in the land and stones patterned in green, black and brown. There were stones of saka, which men cut for ornaments, stones which became molten for cunning work. They built walls of black glass and bound them with glass by fire.

They used strange fire from the Netherworld which was but slightly separated from them, and foul air from the breath of the damned rose in their midst. They made eye reflectors of glass stone, which cured the ills of men. They purified men with strange metal and purged them of evil spirits in flowing fire. We dwell in a land of three peoples, but those who came from Ramakui and Zaidor were fewer in numbers. It was the men of Zaidor who built the Great Guardian which ever watches, looking towards the awakening place of God. The day He comes not its voice will be heard.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolobus/kolbrin05.htm#THE%20BOOK%20OF%20MANUSCRIPTS

Interesting to note waitaha was also a nation of 3 people, one a stone people, one a star people and one were garderners, also the referance to Large green stone deposits, which we still have in NZ.

Incredible ocean voyages

“There are enormous ocean currents, great rivers in the sea that carry you across the ocean and if you know where to get on and off these you can go wondrous distances.

“They were incredible voyages and are described in Song of Waitaha.

“When the Waitaha were ready, they sent the founding waka from their homelands, carrying 175 people who had the mana and the whakapapa and the wairua, the spirit, to make a nation – to create this nation of the Waitaha. And it was a nation of many people.”

There were three peoples aboard the founding waka. “One was called the Urukehu, the people whose skin was so white it was freckled. They had blonde hair and red hair and their eyes were blue or hazel. They were a small people. They were the Starwalkers, the navigators, and they had amazing skills in understanding the geometry of the stars. They could read the patterns in the stars to lead them to this land.

“Alongside them were the tall, dark people who were giants. They were over six foot and we know they existed because their bones are still here in special places. They were supreme gardeners. In this land they harvested the kumara 1000 kilometres further south than it was grown, even in its homeland in South America. They had developed sophisticated gardening skills. These were the Moriori.

“And the third people were called the Stone People, the Kirita. They were the stonewalkers, or stonecarriers, or stoneshapers. They were the people of the snows. People ask how they carried the pounamu over the mountains passes, how they coped with the snow and cold. They revelled in it, because that was their home. They came from the land of snow and cold.”

http://www.generationspirit.com/ancient-wisdom/87-a-special-star-alignment-in-the-sky-signalled-to-waitaha-elders-the-time-had-come-to-release-their-ancient-story
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 09, 2013, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: guest1
I am loving your input, really interesting stuff, and you've clearly been deep into Kolbrin research, glad to have you around, this is the main reason I created this group, so people like you would stumble upon it and help fill the missing pieces of the puzzle.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 09, 2013, 03:39:22 PM
Quote from: guest1
Thanks Manuel, glad there is a place i can share and talk about the kolbrin.

Ive posted alot of my research at this link here regarding ancient NZ and waitaha, i go by the name of Ra aka Royal Assassin enjoy .  :) http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1682263/pg1
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:16:51 PM
Quote from: guest1
Heremia, how much do you know about the Phoenecian and Celtic early settlers pre Maori arrival in New Zealand ? I have heard that there are many Maori legends concerning them, that are not very politicaly corect to publish within this "greivence" culture that Maori have today. Where did the Mori Ori come from , and why did the Maoris wipe them all out ?
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 13, 2013, 11:25:31 PM
Quote from: guest1
Hi Sha'ul, as i understand it the Mori Ori came from South America as stated in the waitaha history's, btw - maori did not wipe out the Mori ori, as there are Mori Ori still alive today, that being said, there was a great slaughtering of the Mori Ori by the maori that greatly reduced there numbers.

Yes there are Many Maori legends that talk about a white race here when they arrived, this is also stated in many of the different tribes history's, the history of the maori is quite complicated, as there are many tribes, and many of them tribes came by different routes here to NZ, and have different history's, waitaha being just one of many.

If you would like to know more, the information you seek can be found in more detail in the following link, it might be a better place to put forward your questions, and i could answer them in more detail there, or direct you to the right information, considering the question is not directly relevent to the kolbrin, and that some of the answer's will require more than the amount of words that is allowed here per post:)

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1682263/pg1

For more information about Celtics here in the past, this link explains the evidence in detail
http://www.celticnz.co.nz/
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 23, 2013, 04:06:22 AM
Waitaha have an extensive in depth knowledge regarding matters of the spirit/consciousness. A Tauira(student) had the opportunity to explore these levels of knowledge, catered for by the wananga (Temple/House of learning).



Te mahi Roto i Te Ao wairua

The work inside the spirit world

The whispering and singing continued, and with it the understanding and the knowing, the continuum of ancient voices singing and whispering in the rhythm of the universe. it became the very pictures of the stories being painted by the orator, by the teacher, by the grandmother and grandfather.

The melodious sounds became almost hypnotic, and with it, the very time and space seemed to call the mokopuna into the world of dreams, and the grandchild fell asleep knowing that the voices continued on, long after the eyes closed and comprehension was made of what had been said. In the sleeptime the mokopuna became the Tauira in the spirit.

The spirit of the mokopuna then became the listener and the library in such a way that the learning was seamless and safe. The catalogue of all the sounds and forms became the grandchild, who in the physical was away on the long tides of dream and yearning, while in the spirit, was active in all senses, participating in the learning roles given, and taking everything that was said and sung into the memory of the tribe. There the moko was immersed in the tribal family memory, Te Hinengaro Koropupu o Te wahingaro.

The mokopuna became the hero of the sagas specially whispered in the strong, well trained voice of the teacher of the night. It made good sense to accelerate the learning during the night time while the universal mind was working. Our elders believed that the mind at night was able to soar high, to dive deep and to fly at speed in the theatre of the universal tides.

Every opportunity must be given to them to do their best to advance their spirit in this time. Only they will know what that journey is, as it was whispered to them by the Mareikura and Whatukura while they were collecting their spirit in the sacred houses of the universe.

Nga Whare Taputapu Atea

The sacred houses of the universe

The sacred houses were situated, it was told us during the Wananga, in the twelve sacred levels of the heavens. There are thirty-six sacred houses of the Creator who carefully placed the Whare Taputapu Atea, the sacred houses of the universe, strategically on the separate levels. These houses are the markers in the night skies that hold onto the star patterns that move in their solar orbits.

Our grandparents recognised the celestial, terrestrial and universal mind libraries of the powerful mind of the individual. Thus the separations of the time of teaching during the training of the mokopuna were given careful and studied recognition.

These chosen mokopuna had exhibited known characteristics of their forbears, and in some cases individual teachers and healers of the Wananga of Waitaha.

All of these signs were observed by the teachers of the Wananga, and this behaviour was all a part of the nation's parents who contributed their observations of the children and the mokopuna as they advanced into the Wananga. After carefully checking these grandparent and parent observations, the wananga teachers and healers would then ask very pertinent questions of the mokopuna.

The answer to the questions would then help in the decisions of the teachers and healers in their ascertaining whether the grandchild was indeed the returned elder in progress along the great life and death spiral of growth.

Recognition markers were given to the grandchild and, as these became accepted by the mokopuna, the markers were moved to include a substantial amount of information that would be added gradually along with all of the recognition patterns in the environment. confirmation from the mokopuna of the recognition of these markers would then determine the level of the grandchild in the star journey.

There was a recongnition by our grandparent teachers that the spirit of the individual born into the families was being continually released from the spirit houses into the physical world through the birth of their mokopuna. This was the Tuituinga Wairua, the the stitching of the spirit. And through this continued stitching of the spirit it advanced the developing spirit, and through its development it then added the improvements to its body and soul. This gradual advancement of the spirit manifested itself in the abilities and talents of the grandchild who, on maturing, became a great leader for the nation.

Te Korowini, Te Korowana
The atoms, the molecules

Huhu kiri topu ana mai
the very skin of creation

kore rawa ka kitea mata e
cannot be seen by the naked eye

te korowai ihokopuni o te tai atea
the fabric of the cloak of the universe

tarwea mai ana i te rangi
rippling in the heavens

karahuri huri pena
twisting and turning like

i te niho marama
the teeth of the moon

kauru poupou mai ana
standing upright

ka titaha koa mai
then leaning slowly

te kukume kaha i
to pull strongly

te wai o rua e
the water of the spirit

mata akina ru para te hinengaro
unnerving and unravelling the senses

mehe takapu kupenga e piki heke ana
like a rising and falling mid section of a

manini, manana ana te wairua
fishing net the spirit totally unsettled.

e koru e mau
it will not catch

te ha o te korowini
the essence of the atoms

te ha o te korowana
the essence of the molecules

tuku ma te waiora
let the waters of the universe

te pupuri e...tuakiri e...
hold onto everything...tuakiri e

On and on the melodies and stories rolled: chanted, sung, spoken, whispered, cried out in anguish, and lamented in tears of pain; on and on, without let up, with huge patience, sometimes with frustration and concern, for the time periods were running together, that is, of the accelerating old age of the teacher and the length of time being taken by the mokopuna to grasp the concepts of the teachings.

Then came a sudden haunting silence. A grandmother or a grandfather, teacher, healer and friend of the trial of the mokopuna, had gone on into the Tai Atea, the tides of the universe. this was the place of the great spiral of light and darkness. It was now time to move the grandchild on into the hands, hearts and minds of the next grandparent teachers.


Whispers of Waitaha ~ Traditions of a Nation
Title: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 23, 2013, 05:36:47 AM
So, where did all this wonderful mystic information and scientific knowledge go ? Certainly, the cannibals that had just wiped out the original inhabitants of New Zealand didn't show any signs of advanced knowledge when Captain Cook turned up ? In fact, now it is coming to light, that indeed, much, much, Maori tradition and custom, has been "appropriated" from those same original inhabitants . Where are the cave paintings, the writing, the mathematic knowledge, advanced tools and structures of other ancient peoples, who surely did come into contact with something, or someone much wiser, and greater, than themselves ?

When will the Maori let the truth be told, what are you, they, afraid of ?
Let me hear honesty, before you try and get me to swallow the history you say is yours .

Karma, or G-d, has yet to catch up with this nation, for the miss deeds, and traitorous acts of the past......for the murder, rape and theft of the lives, and the culture , of a whole civilisation. Or perhaps that is what the coming of the English and others was to Maori, a recompense, for what they had done. As well for the Maori, that the descendants of these same originals they wiped out, treated the Maori, with more consideration than they did the Kelts that were here before them.

Truth, in opposition to all else, Yes ?
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 23, 2013, 07:26:46 AM
Yes there was rape and theft of lives, it is written within the history of many nations, not just Maori, but continues through to this day for some.

The Maori history states that there was different times of migration to this country, it was the migration of the war Maori that brought the devastation to this country of the former inhabitants.

Waitaha history states, that the earlier migrations of Maori were part of the waitaha nation, and that the war Maori were related to these tribes intergrated within Waitaha.

The information and knowledge was held within the women and men of waitaha, who were absorbed into other Maori tribes, weather as slaves for breeding purposes, or as part of the tribe, the knowledge was keep-ed in song, within the trained memory of these men and women and keep within the whare wahanga (house/temple of learning), this information is found in Song of the old tides by Barry Brailford, and also in the waitaha books, Traditions of a Nation and Whispers of a nation.

In my research of waitaha, I found that they once populated the bay of plenty region as well as many other region in NZ, I am related to the tribes in Tauranga region through my mothers side, at my mothers family uru pa(grave yard) some unmarked graves where found, with unidentified skeletons , the way/custom they were buried, in a sitting up position, is consistant with how the customs of the original inhabitants buried there dead, now the question i ask, is why are they buried in my family uru pa(grave yard)  they must of been family? you would not of buried some one you just ate next to other family members, or a slave right?

Ancient burial methods

One 19th century report from the fiord area of the South Island spoke of humans remains in a limestone cave that were so old that a stalactite had partially encased the petrified remains.

Skeletons of the ancient people have been observed, frequently, since the earliest colonial time, in burial caves or in a sitting (trussed position) in sand dunes, with artefact's beside them. The trussed burial is a typical type of pre-Maori burial. Around Kekerengu in the Kaikoura area of the South Island a large number of these have been found, reportedly with a moa egg with each trussed skeleton, a burial method similar to ancient burials in Costa Rica, where round stone balls accompanied the deceased into the afterlife. One such burial was found on Pigeon Mountain near Howick with a pumice ball found with the deceased.

Some bodies found in caves around the Raglan region were encased in Kauri gum, while in both Raglan and the Waima Range there are dry mummified remains in caves. Another ancient custom practiced by the pre-Maori people was to take the bodies to an open air location where the body tissues could eaten by carrion birds, like the black-backed seagull. The remains would stay there for a year or so in the elements until the relatives returned to gather the bones and stack them neatly into a bundle. These would then be carried to and deposited in a burial cave or rock fissure. Others were placed on a carved wooden tray held by a menacing looking statuette figure the purpose of which was scare anyone who wanted to come and disturb the remains. Several of these were located in the Waima Range around Waimamaku, Hokianga District.

Some burials were in stone hewn coffins, such as a number observed in different locations around the Wanganui River region. (see photo Turehu coffins)

Those found in burial caves often had red hair or other light brown and blond hues. Samples of their braided hair, taken from the Waitakere rock shelters, used to be on display at Auckland War Memorial Museum and were the subject of written commentary by Maori anthropologist, Sir Peter Buck. Our earliest maritime explorers frequently saw the, red headed, freckle-faced Maori or "waka blondes" and large pockets of them survived well into the 20th century as people who had never mixed their blood with colonial era European settlers. These days, when ancient, pre-colonial European Caucasoid skeletons are located, they are handed over to the local iwi and no scientific investigation is permitted.

An example of this happened in1995 on a Manutahi farm in Taranaki. The remains of 12 skeletons in a formal pre-European burial ground were unearthed by contractors doing earthworks. The bones were removed and reinterred, reluctantly, at Manutahi Marae where elders said they should have been left where they were. Michael Taylor, a private archaeologist from Wanganui, was called in by the NZ Historic Places Trust to assess the discovery. He said the burial site "definitely pre-dates European settlement due to the style of burial, state of the bones and the presence of what may have been woven flax. Something like this is a significant discovery because it is an unrecorded formal burial site. I’ve been in archaeology for over 20 years and this is the first time I have seen anything like this."

Since the find, more evidence has filtered through. This tells us that the bones of each skeleton unearthed were in woven bags, but the material was not flax; The burial site was a formally organised location, totally unknown to the local iwi by their own admission. It’s evident that they had no history of burials at this location and in this unique manner; The final burial had occurred in swamp or bog land and was similar to the bog burials of Britain. No photography or forensic analysis of the well preserved skeletal remains and accompanying materials to determine their age, ethnicity or physical anthropology was permitted.

Turehu coffins. These skeletons have recognisable European physiology. They were already very old when found in rugged country, far from any European churchyard and with stone hewn coffins.

A blowup of the picture positively shows a side view of a jaw (mandible) which is not Maori, but European. Maori predominantly have a "rocker jaw" with a continuous downwards curve on the lower border. Further to that, the eye sockets of these people are squarish, the nose openings pyramidal, the faces long and narrow (dolicephalic skull type) and the craniums very round with a high vault.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1682263/pg3

I am Maori and i have the ancestors of this lands blood within me, am i too blame myself for the actions of some of my ancestors concerning the war Maori?, aee blood was spilt, and there is allot of pain that needs to be healed.

I am more interested in honouring the blood of all my ancestors, even if they did war with each other from time to time, as recounted many times in many Maori myths and legends.

Cannibalism is not solely a Maori companion, but is also found within western ancient mythology, there are certain elements that encourage the behaviour like the shortage of food, after a major natural disaster/event, like when the destroy passed, and set of volcanic eruptions around the world, blocking the light of the sun for long periods, that caused the seasons to change, and crops to die, add that to tidal waves and floods, and you get the picture, would probably happen again.

Truth, in opposition to all else, completely :)


Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 23, 2013, 12:43:19 PM
Thanks for your honesty brother, now I can read your posts with an open heart.
I too had different sides of my family fighting each other in the past, and have to reconcile that within myself.
I'm not against Maori, I just think its time Maori were honest with themselves, and the rest of us Pakeha, and tell the truth. As should DOC, and the government.
It would end all this land claim rubbish, and bring a real unity, to Maori and Pakeha.
Love and light to you my Maori brother.
Sha'ul,
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 25, 2013, 07:42:58 AM
Thank you sha'ul, i am sure it could happen.

Love and light bro
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 25, 2013, 08:10:28 PM
LEGENDS OF THE MAORI

CHAPTER X. CELT AND MAORI. — LIKENESSES IN FOLK-BELIEF, LEGEND AND POETRY

likenesses in folk-belief, legend and poetry.
many a year ago colonists from the Scottish Highlands and from other Celtic lands were interested to find a remarkably close resemblance between the Gael and Maori in some of the everyday customs and in tribal beliefs and concepts, as well as in social and political organisation. It was men like Sir Donald Maclean who were the readiest to understand something of the Maori mind and to perceive the motives and the processes of reasoning which prompted actions that to most pakeha people were at first inexplicable.

Governor Sir George Bowen, in his dispatches to the Colonial Office, frequently remarked on the close resemblance between Maori clan customs and those of the Highlands, especially in time of war. The average Maori of that day, had he been transplanted suddenly to a glen in Appin or an isle in the Hebrides, would have been able to adjust himself quickly to the tribal and village life.

In reading Gaelic literature and records of Highland clans I have noted many a family likeness between Gael and Maori—and not alone the Scottish Celt, but the Irish and the Manx—in customs, spiritual belief, and poetic expression.

The twilight of the old gods has not yet gone in the forests and straths of the West of Scotland and in the mountain valleys of the Urewera and the kaingas of Taranaki. The clan and sub-clan systems tended to isolation and to the preservation of old secret faiths, old ways, old songs.

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Pom01Lege-t1-body-d10.html
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 26, 2013, 08:08:15 PM
Some great research happening there, Ra...... look forward to more being revealed.  Laraine
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 27, 2013, 02:48:07 AM
Yes, all very true, but now we know why, and from whom the Maori got these customs and traditions. No wonder they were recognised as being similar to that of the Celts.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 28, 2013, 09:11:57 PM
Absolutely fascinating thread this one. 

I have noticed, whilst reading, that emphasis is being placed on some form of Celtic intervention happening to/with/amongst Maori at some earlier time in history.  However, having listened to some of the stories told to me by certain of my own tipuna and at least one Tohunga Atua, (I am Te Ati Awa [Taranaki] by the way) could the possibility not exist that both the early Celts and Maori (by whatever name or names they went by at the time) have been taught by older, perhaps more megalithic cultures (such as the Olmecs for example) concerning their broad social structures - hence similarities?  This could account for observable similarities between the two cultures and not necessarily an actual physical interaction between the two.  [I am not saying here that interaction between the two cultures was not possible, considering both had quite advanced (for want of a better term) knowledge concerning travel by sea.]

This is merely speculation on my part, and I have no evidence to back what I have suggested up.  However, I do put it out there for consideration.

Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 29, 2013, 02:49:46 AM
VEDIC CULTURE IN NEW ZEALAND

http://satyavidya.com/vedicnz.htm

Dating back in History, we see that early Indians had links with the Easter Islands as far back as 3000BC, by the “Old Brahmi” or Indus script being there. In New Zealand, we have a ship-bell dating to around 1000AD, that has Tamil charactors on it.

Now, interestingly, our history states that around 1000AD, a “new wave” of Polynesian peoples arrived in New Zealand (Maoris), speaking the Malayo-Polynesian tongues. Coincidence they arrived the same time as the Tamil Navigators here?

It is more plausible, since this is about the time of the great Sailendra Dynasty, that these Maori peoples speaking related languages to the Indonesians etc. of S. E. Asia, were distributed throughout the Pacific by Tamil traders and Ships, that arrived in New Zealand.

We note many Indic and “Naga” (Eastern India and SE Asian) elements in Maori culture that also support this. As a Southern land, New Zealand would also have been known as one of the Patala Lokas on Earth, where Naga peoples dwelled.

The sacred Maori serpent and water-monster is the Taniwha (pron. ‘Tani-pha’). New Zealand has no serpents, showing it is an imported myth, and these people have some kind of serpent-worship ancestory. We note that In Vedic Dharma, Twashtar is the Creator-God who was father of the Serpent-King Vritra. Perhaps this is who they trace their ancestory from.

The Indonesian Malayo-Polynesian languages’ Indic shades are hence also found in the Polynesian branch, showing a direct link with India – and again supporting the view that maoris came across from these lands during the Sailendra reign, as migrants on Tamil ships.

The Maori word for the Sun is “Ra” – which is very close to ancient Egyptian and the Sanskrit Solar God-King Rama – of renown fame throughout Indonesia and other S. E. Asian lands through Ramayana. His triumph over the Rakshasas of Lanka who ruled S. E. Asian lands and freed them, is well-known. Ramayana mentions Yavadvipa (Java, Indonesia).

This, again, connects Maoris even closer with the Vedic culture of S. E. Asia and suggests the earlier Moriori were also an Indic peoples of this clan. For, how did the Tamils get here at the same time as Maori otherwise? New Zealand hence, must have been known.

The Maori term for “God” or deity is “Atua” – close to the Vedic “Aditya” – meaning Luminary or Sun-God. It is also cognate to Deva or God in the Rig Veda, showing such Vedic ties, also.

In dress and architecture, the Maori resemble the Naga peoples of Eastern India and S. E. Asia and those of the Americas – hence forming one of the many Naga peoples. We note of the Nahuatl language in the Americas and the ancient King Nahush of ancient India – who became demonic and was cursed to become a Naga (serpent) by the Sage Agastya (who is associated with teaching in Southern India, Sri Lanka and S. E Asia).

The Maori also share the S. Indian flood tales, associated with Agastya. According to Bhagavata – Manu Satyavrata was a Dravida (S.Indian) King that sailed into Himalayas after the last flood, along with the Rishis. Dravida lands include Gujerat and Tamil Nadu – where ancient Kingdoms, some 7000 years old have recently been found under the waters.

The Maori tale states Maui (counterpart of Manu) pulled New Zealand out of the sea in the form of a Fish – relating to the Vedic tale of Manu and the fish, Matsya, who saved him. Maori, hence, also trace back to Manu Satyavrata – linking them, once again to Vedic mythology and Asia.

The Supreme of Maori society was known as “Ariki”, which meant Chief, Leader or Priest. It can hence be related to the term for Vedic Kshatriyas (warriors) and Brahmins (priests) – ‘Arya’ or Aryan, which denoted a noble – a common term used to denote the great Vedic peoples.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BritishMuseumMatsya.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/BritishMuseumMatsya.jpg/360px-BritishMuseumMatsya.jpg)

Manu in Maori means Bird, which gives more of a clue to who maui was.
   
Legends of Maui Tikitiki-a-Taranga
http://www.deeknow.com/notes/maori/maui.html

 The-bird-of-the-sun
(Nga-Ti-Hau)

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Whi08EAnci-t1-body-d11.html

This man the Bird-of-the-Sun was of a certain tribe, who were men (like our selves) who had a home on the mountain called Hiku-rangi (tail of heaven). Great was the evil of this world in those days, but the moth or the moss of damp cold (mildew or rust) could not get at the place where this man lived and Totoka (congeal) was the name of his house, but his appearance was more like that of a god than the multitudes of men of this world, and the lightning of the heaven flashed in or about his house with bright light, and evil or mishap never came on or near to the house, and hence these words in respect to this house:

    Fly, fly the Awa-iti (little rill)
    And will, fly The-bird-of-the-Sun
    And clear with light
    To the lower part of Heaven

He the Bird of the sun was a comely person, and nobler looking than the men of this world, and his servants were named Uenga-o-te-rangi (steadfast of heaven) and this person lived with the Bird of the sun at the same home, and they were each of the male sex, but each were sacred, nor did they even have wives, and Uenga-o-te-rangi had the power or knew how to fly like a bird, as also did Tu-waka (man of the medium) and Tama-roro (son of the brain) was a man possessing the same power, as also Maru (authority) had the same knowledge of flying like a bird, each of them had the knowledge and power to fly in the open space of the sky, nor was this power or knowledge limited to the act of walking on the earth. Rehua (split) had the power also to fly like a bird, and was equal in all the knowledge which those above given possessed. Rehua was a good man, of mild temper, and kind and attentive to the people, and fed the orphans, and attended to, and guarded the poor. He lived at a place called Tupu-o-te-rangi (growth of heaven) which was on the ancient hills of heaven, and not unlike Hiku-rangi (tail of heaven) and was as good in appearance, and like it in not having any evil there, nor was there any moths or mildew there.


Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 29, 2013, 02:52:33 AM
Hi Lance, its possible :)

There is a Definite Megalithic Track across the Old World from the Atlantic to the Pacific

This Track passes from Japan over Micronesia and — Polynesia to the American Coast

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d1-d4.html

(8) Thereafter the megalithic route across the Pacific is broken and incontinuous. Not till Samoa is reached, away to the south-east, do we pick it up again, for between lay the coral groups of the Marshalls and the Gilberts, the islands of which have not the permanence of volcanic structure, but are the work of the coral insect, at the mercy of storm and billow. The Fale-o-le-fee, or House of the Fairy, behind Apia, is an ellipse of giant stone columns, no mean rival of our Stonehenge. In the Tongan group, to the south of Samoa, we have again the size and the permanency of ancient land, and here we have the gigantic truncated pyramids which are called the tombs of the Tui-Tongas, and the colossal trilithon or gateway composed of three giant stones. It is useless seeking for such ancient structures in the low coral groups like the Paumotas and the Austral Archipelago.

(9) The track is again resumed away to the east in Huahine, one of the Society group, where a dolmen or colossal stone altar exists, and in Tahiti a gigantic truncated pyramid. To the north-west, in Hawaii, are the huge temples of Waikiki and Punepa, whilst to the south and south-east we have the minute Rapa, Pitcairn, and Easter Islands, lying in somewhat the same latitude, 27 to 28 south of the Equator, the two page 5former separated by more than a thousand miles of ocean, the two latter by some fifteen hundred miles; and in each of them there are unmortared stone monuments. To complete the megalithic story of the Pacific, we have two specimens of this ancient type of stone structure in the North Island of New Zealand, one a miniature Stonehenge, with huge blocks standing six or seven feet above the ground, at Kerikeri, in the Bay of Islands, and another near Ateamuri, to the north of Taupo, consisting of fifty great stones set erect in the earth.

Clear Evidence of a Fair Race having been Absorbed
by the Polynesians

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html

(12) But it is in Polynesia proper that most evidences of a primeval fair race have been gathered. Taken as a whole the islanders of this region have a singularly European appearance. What struck all the early voyagers was the fine faces and regular features of most of the islanders, and some of them broke into raptures over the beauty of the women and the stalwart grace of the men. They constitute one of the tallest races in the world. Their hair is generally abundant, and generally wavy, never kinky, like the hair of the negroids, and never rank and coarse, like that of the mongoloids and they can unlike these two divisions of page 32mankind, have, if they wish, plenty of hair on the face. The colour of it is generally dark, and amongst many of them a certain proportion of the children have brown hair, which changes into black only at full maturity. The complexion is, as a rule, brown, but it is very often olive, and no darker than that of the Southern Italians; and colour is as much a matter of climate and food as of race. Dr. Hamy, the French anthropologist, finds from new measurements that "in the east, north, and south they present a long-headedness very pronounced." Other observers incline to place them amongst the medium-headed men, neither very round nor very long. But the skulls that the Americans took out of the burial platforms of Easter Island are in appearance decidedly long.

(13) There are even cases of a cross with a blonde Caucasian race amongst the Maoris, and especially amongst the Ureweras, who have seen little of Europeans till lately; the urukehu, or red-headed, families and individuals are not infrequent, and the red-head is generally accepted as an indication of a cross between a blonde and brunette race, whilst it is acknowledged that this tribe, not long after arriving in the Matatua canoe, passed inland to the highlands round Lake Waikaremoana, and, struggling with the inhabitants of the mountain and forest land, ultimately amalgamated with them. In that other long-isolated district, the King Country, near the harbour of Kawhia, there are many of these rufous people, and, at the same time, the tribes there speak of their ancestors, the immigrants of the Tainui canoe, amalgamating with the aboriginals, the Ngatimokotorea. And they say that in the fore part of the Tainui a fairy woman called Te Peri had command. The aboriginals of the Ureweras are called by them the Toi; and Mr. Elsdon Best quotes a Maori description of this primitive people as peaceful and good, a contrast to the restless warriors that had come in amongst them from Polynesia.


The Fairy Peoples of Maori Legend are all European-
like, and in all Countries Fairies are the Defeated
Aborigines

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html

(14) A significant substitution by the Ureweras, when the urukehu are mentioned, is the word Turehu, which is used by the Maoris as almost interchangeable with Patupaiarehe in the sense of a fairy or beneficent supernatural being. The Turehu are also represented as an aboriginal people absorbed by the Polynesian immigrants forty generations, or about a thousand years, ago. They had come, according to White's "Ancient History of the Maori," "from the other side of the ocean," and conquered the Tutu-mai-ao, who had before them conquered the Kui, the people that got the land from Maui, when he fished it out of the sea.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 29, 2013, 04:52:19 AM
That is absolutely fascinating !
Why don't you give this info to the Maori leadership, so they stop this "indigenous Maori" rubbish, that all us Pakeha know instinctively is utter rubbish, the Maori came here on boats, just like everybody else.
So, since I am 1/3 Scott , 1/3rd Sephardi Jewsih, 1/3rd German Kelt, can I make some kind of land claim on behalf of my ancestors who were first in this land ?
I'm really being tongue in cheek here, but there is truth to what I'm saying.
Your information is really very amazing, and should be taught in schools here in NZ, as required historical reading.
Keep up the good work brother.

Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2013, 07:32:16 AM
Concerning our current situation, it will get there bro, not only is the destination important, but also the journey, and how it is done.

Thanks Sha'ul , Good point, and a valid one at that, before the physical, i look at the spiritual value.

The lore of this land is the lore of your ancestors, it is your inheritance if you but wish to accept it, in a sense it is the inheritance of the world, it is the collective wisdom and knowledge of the ancient past, written into the land it self, in relationship to the stars. a 3d library of sorts.

That's partly why north island represented as a fish, spiritual knowledge/food(strong ley lines), embedded within the land itself.

No one owns the land,, we are only care takers/protectors, we all belong to the land, that's why the original people of the land where called tangata whenua(people of the land), the different tribes, are tribes that identify with the land in there areas, when reciting wakapapa, the speaker will often referr to his mountain, his river, and his gods, in a way to show connections to the different localities and landmarks of the land, this gives one identity, and there are wakapapa linage that is recited, that goes back to other shores, other continents.

In theory you could walk on to a marae(meeting house), and claim linkage, by knowing your whakapapa(spiritual genealogy), for you are a child of ranginui and Papatuanuku, heaven and earth, spirit and flesh, light and darkness, hence we are all brothers and sisters.

Like the star of David, and a upside down tree,  we also have roots in consciousness.

The word Io pronounce in Maori sounds like eel, and the eel(water serpent/spiritual wisdom) is considered sacred.

The Three Baskets of Knowledge

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dominic/knowledg.html (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dominic/knowledg.html)

Traditional Maori thinking presents us with three sources of knowledge. First there is the experience of our senses. Secondly there is our understanding of what lies behind our sense experience. Thirdly there is the experience we have, particularly in ritual, of our oneness with each other and with the past. These three sources of knowledge are spoken of as the three baskets of knowledge brought done from the heavens.

According to most Maori traditions it was Taane, the spiritual power responsible for the trees and the birds and the spiritual power who separated Rangi and Papa, Heaven and Earth, who climbed to the highest heaven and brought back the three baskets, or kete, of knowledge.

The names of the three baskets vary from tribe to tribe. The names generally used are te kete aronui, te kete tuauri, and te kete tuaatea, though the Kahungunu tradition as presented by Percy S. Smith speaks of te kete uruuru matua, the kit of the knowledge of peace, of all goodness, of love; te kete uruuru rangi, the kit of all the prayers, chants and ritual, used by us human beings; and te kete uruuru tau, or tawhito, the kit of the knowledge of war, agriculture, wood-work, stone-work, and earth-work.

The understanding of what is contained in the three baskets also varies from tribe to tribe. What I present here is the understanding of the baskets and their contents given by the Reverend Maori Marsden.

According to Marsden te kete aronui is the kit containing the knowledge of what we see, aro-nui, 'that before us', the natural world around us as apprehended by the senses.

Te kete tuauri is the basket containing the knowledge that is tuauri, 'beyond, in the dark', the knowledge which understands, 'stands under', our sense experience. It is the understanding we build up of "the real world of the complex series of rythmical patterns of energy which operate behind this world of sense perception".

The third basket is te kete tuaatea, the basket which contains the knowledge of spiritual realities, realities beyond space and time, the world we experience in ritual.

Of particular importance to us, if we are to grasp the worth of the human person in Maori terms, is the knowledge contained in both the second and third baskets of knowledge.
The Second Basket of Knowledge, Te Kete Tuauri.

This is the knowledge we have of the reality behind the colours, shapes, smells and sounds perceived by our senses. It is the knowledge of the 'real world', which is:

...the seed bed of creation where all things are gestated, evolve, and are refined to be manifested in the natural world. This is the world where the cosmic processes originated and continue to operate as a complex series of rythmical patterns of energy to uphold, sustain and replenish the energies and life of the natural world.

Today a whole new world is being opened up to us behind what we see through our senses. This world is both much bigger than we knew twenty years ago, and much smaller.

At one end of the scale we speak of a universe with millions and millions of observable galaxies and that has been in existence for ten to fifteen billion years. We humans are on a small planet at the edge of one of those galaxies and have been in existence for a tiny fraction of that time.

On the other end of the scale we have known for some time that we and the universe are made up of very small atoms. Then about eighty years ago a New Zealander, Ernest Rutherford, managed to split the atom and nothing has been quite the same since. We now hear of photons, neutrinos, gravitons, quarks and gluons and all sorts of strange new words for the particles which make up an atom. The human brain alone contains about a hundred million billion billion particles.

And what keeps the universe moving? Energy, and especially nuclear energy, the energy contained in these particles.

What then of the Maori model of the universe and our place as human beings in the universe? The Maori model of the universe presents us with at least a two-world system, a material world and a spiritual world, intimately connected.

In the words of Maori Marsden: It is also obvious that the Maori does not, and never has accepted the mechanistic view of the universe which regards it as a closed system into which nothing can impinge from without. The Maori conceives it as at least a two-world system in which the material proceeds from the spiritual, and the spiritual (which is the higher order) interpenetrates the material physical world of Te Ao Marama.

Moreover the human person is regarded as the greatest reality of this world:

He aha te mea nui o te ao? Maaku e kii atu he tangata, he tangata!

'What is the greatest reality of the world? I say the human person, the human person!'

Yet this Maori model of the universe has several parallels with modern physics and quantum mechanics - the beginning from nothingness, the development and expansion over a huge time period, the importance of consciousness, and the fundamental importance of energy.

Underpinning the Maori model of the universe is the realization of the worth of every part of creation, a worth which comes from the very fact of its 'being' and from the link of each part of creation with particular spiritual powers. This is expressed in the word tapu, tapu, 'being with potentiality for power'.

Tapu is a reality of the natural world, yet has its source in the mana, or power, of the spiritual powers. Just as the different elements of the natural world, the winds, the sea, the earth, the human person and all within the natural world, receive their being from the powers of the spiritual world, so they receive their tapu from the powers of the spiritual world. I discuss tapu in chapter three.

We can be nothing, we can do nothing, without mana, or power. Our mana is the actualization, the realization, of our tapu.

The Third Basket of Knowledge, te Kete Tuaatea.

The third basket of knowledge is referred to as tuaatea, knowledge that is 'beyond space and beyond time'.

Tua-Atea is the world beyond any space-time framework, it is infinite and eternal. This is the realm of Io, the supreme God whose attributes were expressed in the various names attributed to him. Io-taketake, 'the foundation of all', Io-nui, 'almighty', Io-roa,'eternal', Io-Uru 'omnipresent', Io-matakana,'omniscient', Io-mataaho, 'glorious one', Io-wananga, 'all wise' ....

It is especially in taking part in the Maori rituals and in using the ritual karakia, the ritual chants, that we move 'beyond space and time' and into the 'eternal present' of the rituals.

The wider purpose of the karakia is to enable us as one people and one with the spiritual powers to control every aspect of our lives and every part of this world.

We are to have this control through the power of the word, the word of the ancestors. No wonder the word is so important in Maori life and the tongue in Maori carving. It is through the word that we are called to take our part as human beings in the whole movement of the universe: i te kore, ki te poo, ki te ao maarama, 'from the nothingness to the night, to the world of light .

In the Maori model of the universe, we have the power of the word and are called to be one with the ancestors and with the spiritual powers in the exercise of the word. Especially in ritual, which takes us beyond space and beyond time, we can experience this oneness with people, oneness with the universe and oneness with Io and take our part in the movement of the universe.

We are part of the process, not above the process. We are dependent on the earth for our material needs. We have not made the earth. We do not own the earth. We have no absolute power over, or ownership of, the earth. As many Maori say, the earth, Papatuanuku, is our mother and we cannot sell our own mother. But we have the obligation to respect and protect the earth, not only for ourselves, but for all creatures who are dependent on the earth for life and nourishment.

We are also dependent for our mana, 'our power', on our links with people both living and dead, and on our links with the spiritual powers. Ultimately all, the land, the people and the spiritual powers, are dependent on Io, the root foundation of everything.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2013, 07:34:54 AM
Thanks  Laraine  :)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2013, 07:46:01 AM
Some great research happening there, Ra...... look forward to more being revealed.  Laraine

Totally agree with Laraine on this one.  Quite fascinating.  Look forward to hearing more Ra.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on May 02, 2013, 05:17:06 AM
Tu meke Ra !
I've only just now read all you wrote.
Beautiful, it all makes such good metaphysical sense, and I have heard some of it before, though in Jewisih religious phillisophical  phrases, not Maori.
I'd sure like to meet you someday.
So, how do I, a white Kiwi,  1/3rd Jewish, 1/3rd German, 1/3rd Scott, walk onto a marea and tell my Whakapapa ? My family has been here for only about 5 generations, but here I stand, at home, on land my ancient forbears once walked, where do I fit ?
After reading that, I will never again doubt that there is much, much to be learned from "Maori spirituality.
My mother, a "white whitch", of some renomn in Tokoroa where I grew up, once knew a Maori Tohunga (please excuse my spelling). He once laid his hands on my head, and gave a vision, or prophesy, concerning my future, he said he had "taken away the veil", whatever that meant, an that in the future, though I'm not very big, people would stand in my shadow ?
His name was Micheal something or other, cant remember, but I do remember his"mana", and his spiritual power, which I could sense very strongly.
Thank you Ra, you have opened my eyes a little more, and freed me from a blindness to who, and what, Maori really are.
Maori, have kept safe, some of the knowledge, of my great ancestors.
Te hei Mauriora !
May peace , love and light be yours  !
Shalom.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on May 02, 2013, 05:43:38 AM
I believe you will readily find such information within the Jewish religion, though it may very well be clad in words and sentences more suited to the Middle East.

It does us good to remember that these wisdoms are not confined to any one area and, if we were to earnestly seek these wisdoms, we would find them in most societies.  There have always been the guardians of such information and knowledge, and even when such guardians have passed from their earthly incarnation and the knowledge apparently lost, this is not the case.

Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on May 20, 2013, 07:00:21 PM
The following is interesting, a gathering of nations from the four corners of the earth gathered here in NZ, why? I suspect the kolbrin answers that question, but i would like to point attention to the main 3 peoples, and there possible relavance to the kolbrin particularly chapter one The scroll of Emod in the Book of Manuscripts.


'The families of Rapuwai and Waitaha stood in the land'

It was time to part. If the Nation was to grow within this land some would be called to build the gardens and fish the waters, and others to explore the land, chart the movement of the stars and walk with the Stone.

Our Waka carried three peoples. The Tohaunga reached into three old iwi to choose the families to settle Aotea Roa. Each went back to ancient mana trees that grew in different seasons. Their ancestors gazed out on different oceans under different stars. Some were born under the bright light of Rehia, and others under Rehua, to be divided by the widest waters in the world.

They came from the four winds. Some were dark skinned and some were white, yet they gathered at Waitangi Ki Roto and lived as one. They learned to speak as one and work as one in the interest of all. We honour forever the three coloured strands that came together in this land to bind the heart,, mind and spirit of the Nation...

Uru Kehu were the children of Kiwa, the golden ones, the short people with pale freckled skin, blue eyes and fair red hair. They came to Waitangi Ki Roto out of the rising Sun.

Maoriori looked back to Hotu Matua, for they were a dark skinned, very tall, big boned people, with dark eyes and long black hair. Their trail began in the lands of the setting Sun.

Kiritea were small and fir skinned and had long black hair and green eyes. Their features carried the marks of the tallest of all mountains, and the enduring qualities of stone.

Song of Waitaha ` The Histories Of A Nation



Thanks shaul, ill send you a message, would be good to meet, i only stay an hour away from you :)



Wise words lance, I am very interested in the history in your area, would love to explore some of the ancient pa sites around there some day.

Here is a video i made of them a while back.

In the land of tara

 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8k2l3REdhI#)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on May 20, 2013, 08:11:56 PM
Thanks for the information Ra.  Absolutely fascinating to say the least.

I hadn't really taken much notice of the pa sites around Taranaki, being concerned mainly with my own at Urenui, Waitara and Parehaka.  It was really interesting to see the use of old world technologies in the form of conical, trapezoid, square, tri-sided, and sacred geometric pyramids used in the construction of most of these pa.  I was familiar with the serpentine/vortex construct of a number of pa, but not so to this degree.  Wonderful.  The use of both ancient and more modern ley systems was also interesting to see.

Thank you.  This has given me a somewhat different perspective on things, especially as it relates to my own people and lands.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on July 26, 2013, 04:37:18 PM
Thanks for the information Ra.  Absolutely fascinating to say the least.

I hadn't really taken much notice of the pa sites around Taranaki, being concerned mainly with my own at Urenui, Waitara and Parehaka.  It was really interesting to see the use of old world technologies in the form of conical, trapezoid, square, tri-sided, and sacred geometric pyramids used in the construction of most of these pa.  I was familiar with the serpentine/vortex construct of a number of pa, but not so to this degree.  Wonderful.  The use of both ancient and more modern ley systems was also interesting to see.

Thank you.  This has given me a somewhat different perspective on things, especially as it relates to my own people and lands.

I agree Lance, the old world technologies are indeed found within many ancient pa's and sites around NZ.

The following to me is part of the answer to how these technologies got here :)

BES OF EGYPT & TARANAICH-THOR OF EUROPE IN THE ANCIENT SOUTH PACIFIC.

Mount Taranaki was, without doubt, ancient New Zealand's foremost navigational beacon. As an active volcano on the western sea coastline facing Australia and Western Polynesia, it's smoky plume would have been visible for a great distance over the horizon. In line with similar belief systems amongst great civilisations, its imposing majesty would have invited religious veneration, in conjunction with the other volcanic peaks further inland.

"Tara" in Maori means apex, fin or spine.

The very ancient European tribes migrating all the way to Britain left a trail behind them of "Tara" derived names

In consideration of ancient Welsh/ Gaelic/ Breton/ Khumri variations on "Tara" we have the following:

"Taran" means "thunder" in Welsh/ Breton/ Khumri. The word "Tardd" would mean "breaking out".

"Tartar" means noise or clamour in Irish/ Gaelic.

Each of these descriptions in Welsh/ Khumri or Irish/ Gaelic migrated to Wales and Ireland via Scandinavia and Germany, where "Thor", meaning literally"thunder", was the pre-eminent Deity and created great thunder claps by crashing two rams heads together.

The Continental European Celts called their God, "Taranis" (the thunderer) and he bore that name in France and Spain amongst the Druids, as well as, seemingly, Celtic countries like Germany, Switzerland and Yugoslavia further east. The name Taranis derives from the Celtic (or Indo-European) root "Taran" meaning "thunderer or thunder" and he was associated with Jupiter.

Another variation on the name was "Taranucnus" or "Taranus"...used in Britain. Taranaich (which is very close in pronunciation to Taranaki) is the Scot/ Pict/ Gaelic god of thunder & lightning. His name was derived from the Gaelic word tarnach or tarna, ‘thunder’. His attribute was the spoked wheel. Taranis, Taran, Taranus, Taranucus, Taranucnus, Taranaich all relate to "Thunderer", the Celtic thunder god and ‘god of heaven’. His symbol was the spoked wheel and a stylized spiral representing lightning. The wheel was normally considered to be a sun symbol, but could also be associated with the thunder god's chariot rumbling across the sky.

The Celtic tribes, Turones, Turoni, Taurini, venerated the deity Taranucus/ Taranaich, which is not a tremendous departure from saying that the Turehu of ancient New Zealand lived in the foothills of Mt, Taranaki. A pre-Maori white tribe was called the Turehu.

The Maori name for the God of thunder and lightning is Tawhaki, which might explain how the second half of "Taran-aki" (aki) became predominant in the finalised nomenclature that described this God regionally..

According to the Roman poet Lucan, Taranis was appeased by burning (Bellum civile or Pharsalia I, 422-465).

This way of describing Mount Taranaki's name, which is the result of a more direct route of migration and influx of European cultural idiosyncrasies from Britain and Continental Europe to New Zealand, is very apt. It describes a thunder and lightning god (inseparable elements) that is appeased by fire. Again the god is associated with one of the great lights in the firmament (Jupiter). This name (Taranis/ Taranucus/ Taranaich) and description of the god's attributes fit the profile of "an active "VOLCANO".

The early beliefs of the Aryans, who migrated west into Europe, were retained in various regions of India and the Hindu God Indra is Taranis/ Taranaich.

The name "Taranaki" is found in the Waitakere Ranges of Northern New Zealand. Also, Wellington Harbour adjacent to New Zealand's capital city used to be called "Tara" as the Maori placename for the area. The ancient name "Tara" is used prolifically all over Ireland in many placenames.

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Bes%20&%20Thor/Bes&Taranis.htm (http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Bes%20&%20Thor/Bes&Taranis.htm)

This next link is example of the ancient geometry and knowledge these people had.

SIGNIFICANT DEGREE ANGLE CODES WITHIN THE CROSSHOUSE.

It is known that the Sumerians, Babylonians, Greeks and other great civilizations of antiquity, used an ancient system of dividing a circle into 360-degrees or 720 calibrations. Their method persists in modern times. The Crosshouse at Miringa Te Kakara (Tiroa) incorporates the same system and clearly encrypts solar, lunar and navigational codes (via the degree angle numbers generated) used universally in the ancient Northern Hemisphere.

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Crosshouse/Crosshouse1.html (http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Crosshouse/Crosshouse1.html)

-------------------------------------------------

Some information in regards to possible links/connection to the Giants and the people known as the sons of fire as mentioned in the kolbrin and Bible. We have many legends of giants within our history, some of our ancient chiefs and leaders were giants, there is even said to be a  Waka(boat/tribe) of giants that landed here. I suspect me or my partner has the blood or connection to these people, as my second son was born with 6 digits on one hand, a trait apparently common to the giant blood, we had it removed at birth, (we regret it now)

There were Giants in the Land
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Pom01Lege-t1-body2-d36.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Pom01Lege-t1-body2-d36.html)

The Myths and History of Red Hair

http://www.themythsandhistoryofredhair.co.uk/aliensatlantis.html (http://www.themythsandhistoryofredhair.co.uk/aliensatlantis.html)

Other discoveries of red-haired mummies have come in Polynesia and the Canary Islands. In fact, both these places are, or were, noted for red-haired people. The Canary Islands was the home of the Guanches, a red-haired tribe that built monuments which can still be seen on the islands today. And red-haired people have been noted sporadically throughout parts of Polynesia, including New Zealand. One internet writer relayed the following legend:

"One Kiribati legend describes eels (Serpents?) coming ashore who turned into red haired men when they swam ashore. Another legend (Bue the Ancestor) describes one of these red men copulating with a woman who was bathing in the shallows at sunrise. The legend describes the "Sun" entering her loins, suggesting a child of the sun was born to her. When this child grew up, he set sail to the East (America) to look for his ancestors."7

The writer also noted:

"The Urekehu - or red heads amongst the Maori are believed to have come from a hot dry land to the East."

Perhaps unsurprisingly the writer elaborated by making reference to Atlantis.

"I am not suggesting that Englishmen came and did the Jack in the Green dance in front of the Tolai, nor that a Scottish mason jumped ship and taught these people a secret handshake. What I am saying is that Both European and Pacific cultures have a common link a long long way back in time, possibly in Atlantis 11,500 years ago...[t]he ancient culture of Atlantis was not just carried on by the Egyptians, but was also carried on by the red haired civilization of Tulapin (Terapin/Turtle Island) and were a dominant population in America until 6,000 years ago."

(just a note, Waitaha history states that one of the people/tribe that made up waitaha came from the land of the great turtle.)

Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on July 26, 2013, 07:45:10 PM
 :) Hello Ra;   thankyou for the links,  good to hear from you, Laraine
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on July 28, 2013, 05:05:58 PM
:) Hello Ra;   thankyou for the links,  good to hear from you, Laraine

Hi Laraine, your welcome, and thanks :)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on July 28, 2013, 05:38:50 PM
The following is a interesting link and information, regarding the earlier post on the possible relationship between  Manu and Maui, and shows a link between Manu and Noah, so i ask myself is it possible Maui was Noah?

If so, brings a whole new meaning to the Waka(boat) of the gods(south island), the boat Maui fished up the north island from.

THE FATHERLAND OF THE POLYNESIANS. ARYAN 1 AND POLYNESIAN POINTS OF CONTACT. No. 4

A tradition of the Maoris, told to the writer many years ago by the most learned man of the South Island then living, was to the effect that Hawaiki-nui was a tuawhenua, a mainland, not an island, that the southern part was mostly plains, with a high ridge of mountains to the north, always snow-clad, and through which country ran the river Tohinga, associated with the deluge. This is not a bad description in general terms of that part of India, and the river Tohinga (which means the Maori form of baptism) is possibly the Ganges, a sacred river of the Hindus.

The story about the deluge, however, is an instance of the transference of an occurrence localized in another place, of which we have such numerous examples. Although the story of the flood is well-known and fully described in Aryan records, it is believed by scholars to have been introduced from Mesopotamia, where great floods in the Euphrates and Tigris gave rise to the story, and formed the basis of the Biblical account. The Noah of the latter account is the Manu of the Aryan story, which word in Maori means “to float,” possibly an accidental similarity.

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_28_1919/Volume_28%2C_No._109/The_fatherland_of_the_Polynesians._Aryan_and_Polynesian_points_of_contact._No._4%2C_by_S._Percy_Smith%2C_p_18-30?action=null (http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_28_1919/Volume_28%2C_No._109/The_fatherland_of_the_Polynesians._Aryan_and_Polynesian_points_of_contact._No._4%2C_by_S._Percy_Smith%2C_p_18-30?action=null)

The story's of both Moses and Noah, both have interlacing frequency, which can cause some confusion between the two.

Chapter 14
Moses Illusion: Implication for human cognition

http://www.psy.cmu.edu/faculty/reder/ph_rlm.pdf (http://www.psy.cmu.edu/faculty/reder/ph_rlm.pdf)

Maori meaning of the word Manu

1. (noun) bird, kite - any winged creature including bats, cicadas, butterflies, etc.

2. (noun) person held in high esteem - a figurative use usually qualified by an epithet


mānu - (verb) to be floating, launch, afloat.

http://www.maoridictionary.co.nz/index.cfm?idiom=&phrase=&proverb=&loan=&dictionaryKeywords=manu (http://www.maoridictionary.co.nz/index.cfm?idiom=&phrase=&proverb=&loan=&dictionaryKeywords=manu)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on August 03, 2013, 05:20:00 PM
Another interesting Link thanks Ra
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on August 05, 2013, 04:28:17 AM
Kiaora Ra,
Doesn't Manu also mean "black ", as in Manu kaha ?

No'ach, in Hebrew has the meaning "White one", as in his complexion, as well as, they say, his character as in white for purity.
Although, I myself am far more inclined to belive the account in the Enuma Elish, than the Biblical tale, the Biblical tale does have its lessons.
Love and light bro.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on August 05, 2013, 07:23:28 AM
Kiaora Ra,
Doesn't Manu also mean "black ", as in Manu kaha ?

No'ach, in Hebrew has the meaning "White one", as in his complexion, as well as, they say, his character as in white for purity.
Although, I myself am far more inclined to belive the account in the Enuma Elish, than the Biblical tale, the Biblical tale does have its lessons.
Love and light bro.

kia ora sha'ul

close, black in Maori is  Mangu or Pango,  similar sounding, but you do bring up an other interesting connection regarding No'ach Hebrew meaning of "white one" and Manu

within the word Manu, is the word Ma, ma in Maori means white. Not to sure on the nu, but nui is big.

and even in the word Maui, we have the Ma at the beginning.

If you ever get the chance to read some of the Waitaha books, you will notice the description of some of the Waitaha ancestors are white in appearance with green and blue eyes. Ever wonder why pawa shells are used in Maori ancient carvings of the gods and ancestors, which give the carvings the appearance of green and blue eyes, to me that is because  the ancestors of this land had blue and green eyes!

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1084/1230903942_e28fa23711.jpg)

Thanks  for the interesting  info bro,  love an light  :) 
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on August 09, 2013, 04:04:59 AM
What !
Man, right under our noses !
Of course, that's why they have Paua shell eyes, that's out of it.
But its obvious isn't it ?
You sure are a wealth of information brother, keep it up, please.
We'll have to get together soon bro, maybe in Summer, meet you at Laraines maybe ?
We can all camp out, and watch the Blue Kachina (Ison) come in together  !
Arohanui, love and light to you brother
Sha'ul..
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 15, 2013, 06:24:17 PM
What i found bro, is that its the little things the count, and its the little things that make up the big picture, like HDMI TV, the more dots the clearer the picture.

Some times the obvious can be the hardest to see, because we trying to find the bigger picture, when the whole time the answer is right in front of us.

Would love to get  together at Laraine's?, Coromandel is a beautiful place, a place i would love to get lost in.

Thank you Sha'ul

Heremaia
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 16, 2013, 03:35:03 AM
The following is from Martin Doutre book, Ancient Celtic New Zealand, I thought you might find this of interest Diane, as the Tuatha De Danann have strong links to Ireland, If Martin is correct, then  it might have been the Tuatha De Danann who brought the Tara place names here, along with other traditions and customs relating to the ancient Israelites?.

A Voice From the Dust

Arrayed upon Moytura Plain, De Dananns's tall and strong. Our fey-like folk outreached, outmatched, a desperate childlike throng. Then vanquished from the bloody field, defeated, sore distressed.

No home awaits through Herculean gates, from whence our people came. From slavers whip, from servitude, yon tyrants there our bane. No sanctuary lying to the west, no Isles, just storm swept sea. OF home, of hearth, of hope bereft, devoured in misery.

The Oracle spoke of Si-nim's Isles, 'neath the starry cross of Set, beyond Pharaoh's eucalyptus route, 'afore floating Ice be met. Where no foe didst strut, nor bully strive, a land of mystic peace, where bairn couldst laugh 'midst plenitude and woe and sorrow cease.

When midyear Sun rose through Taurean dawn, we glimpsed old Ire the last. But turned our eyes to southern skies, heaven's map before the mast and sailed by lands of tall black men, to sweltering oceans east, where currents tugged us east and south, to Si-nim's southern reach.

Then swept us north and eastly still, to Si-nim's furthest land. 'Neath long white clouds, in crashing surf, we beached there on the sand. 'Pon fertile plains we tilled and toiled, sowed grains to harvest meals. No serpent slithered twixt our feet, no scorpion at our heels.

Midst towering trees our orb abodes, we built of fitted stone. 'Neath open skies we sought for hills, where RA's gold presence shone. And raised up pillars to the Gods, that dwelt amongst the stars And laid out etchings on the ground, to mark the path of RA.

With knowledge gleaned of Enoch's gift, for all that dwelt on Earth, we set our times for toils and fests and cultural rebirth. Yet others came in peace to dwell, for rest, for harmony. E'en De Dananns, fresh from war, in quest of sanctuary.

The barques of Egypt 'proached our shores and Mayans, with their ship, to gather precious, verdant stone, from the mountain of the mist. The cairn, the tor, 'pon hill, in vale, by Amon's guiding hand, we built and set, to measures true and mapped all Si-nim land.

And dwelt in peace for all the days that RA didst rise in Taurus. Through Aries', to Piscean's House, no conflict came before us. Tall people from the warm east Isles, their hair of reddish hue, didst come on large and splendid craft, of double hulled canoe.

When Amon RA was dwelling in the Star house of Pisces, came brown skinned people, warm Isle folk, who foraged in the seas. They learned our arts, to weave, to plant, our counting of the days, to carve the precious verdant stone, so many of our ways.

Yet others of their kinfolk came, their populations grew. Came word of wars in northern Isles and fleets o Tonga-tapu. And warriors of the northern fleets, at last didst find our shores and drew some kinfolk to their stance and peace was known no more.

And murmurs came of horrid sights and savage men of dread, who terrorised our captured kin and feasted on our dead. Our undefended villages, by stealth, by forceful raids, were overcome, each fell with ease, all souls within them slayed.

All Si-nim land was bathed in blood, most died but others flee. Survivors, stalked and hunted still, 'neath forest canopy. Our maidens, knew but living death, rapine, abuse and scorn, enslaved to heartless, callous men and to them children born.

Brave maidens fair, down cast of heart, their babes upon their knees, recounted our ancestral truths and genealogies. 'Commit to memory my child' a duty a must, Lest memory of our noble folk, lie forgotten in the dust.

Dedicated to those, not allowed to be remembered.

Martin Doutre

Ancient Celtic New Zealand

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message341551/pg3058 (http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message341551/pg3058)

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/inde.html (http://www.celticnz.co.nz/inde.html)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 17, 2013, 02:20:21 AM
Absolutely fantastic Ra.  Great to have your input again.

I have to wonder here, and this is for Culdians in particular, does this indicate Elvid has been brought to these shores not once (back in late '79/'80) but on at least one other occasion?  I would have to presume, by this research of Ra's, that the ancient adage of "when Elvid comes in spring" to perhaps be a distant memory of these earlier voyagers and a reference to a "promised land" of sorts. 

I cannot fully explain here, but the information presented resonates very strongly with me. 

I am indebted to you Ra, as what you have given here has truly pulled at me in a way I have not experienced for quite some time.  As one from Tara, I thank you.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 17, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
Thank you Lance, good to be back, been very busy last few months, Me an my partner had our 4th boy in September, would of been our 5th if you count the one we lost, so we have been adjusting to the changes, the time away also helps to let the information settle/process.

Got a 24h shift coming up, so ill be back in a couple of days, see yous soon.

Hi to everyone :)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 18, 2013, 02:01:23 AM
Understandable on all fronts.  Congratulations to you both.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 19, 2013, 08:18:16 AM
Thanks again Lance, what Martin has written has pulled at me as well.

In examining some of the dots.

The Zodiac and Its Signs

Among the ancients the sun was always symbolized by the figure and nature of the constellation through which it passed at the vernal equinox. For nearly the past 2,000 years the sun has crossed the equator at the vernal equinox in the constellation of Pisces (the Two Fishes). For the 2,160 years before that it crossed through the constellation of Aries (the Ram). Prior to that the vernal equinox was in the sign of Taurus (the Bull). It is probable that the form of the bull and the bull's proclivities were assigned to this constellation because the bull was used by the ancients to plow the fields, and the season set aside for plowing and furrowing corresponded to the time at which the sun reached the segment of the heavens named Taurus.

Albert Pike describes the reverence which the Persians felt for this sign and the method of astrological symbolism in vogue among them, thus: "In Zoroaster's cave of initiation, the Sun and Planets were represented, overhead, in gems and gold, as was also the Zodiac. The Sun appeared, emerging from the back of Taurus. " In the constellation of the Bull are also to be found the "Seven Sisters"--the sacred Pleiades--famous to Freemasonry as the Seven Stars at the upper end of the Sacred Ladder.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta12.htm (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta12.htm)

A CONCEPTUAL OVERVIEW OF MAORIDOM AND FREEMASONRY IN NEW ZEALAND SOCIETY


Early Maori/Freemasonry Connection expressed:

There are many general assertions that a system of signs identical with modern Freemasonry exists within the Maori society. The most precise account is a paper in the New Zealand Craftsman of 8 February 1898, by Brother Henry Stowell4, “being a Native of New Zealand on my grandmother’s side, she being an Aboriginal Native” 5.

The paper is quoted in its entirety6:

“The Maori in their traditions, fangitawhiti (epic poems), and language show conclusively that ages ago there was at Hawaiiki, a grand temple known as wharekura, at which temple meetings were regularly held and presided over by tohunga (priestly experts), or initiates of a very high order, and wherein was taught and practised a perfect system of principles in an esoteric form, with exhaustive and appropriate rituals, also symbols, signs, and passwords, and that these were kept and preserved on tables of stone, which latter were deposited in the temple. The ritual and symbols were entrusted by the ariki-ranji (divine and supreme head) to the various officers in order to properly carry out the ceremonials connected with these meetings, whereat only those others who were entitled to be present had the happiness of listening to the recitals, and of observing the uses of the higher symbols. Regarded from a Maori point of view this Masonry is neither more nor less than the relation of ‘the main features of creation and the origin and history of the higher destiny of man’, which relation was accompanied with appropriate symbols. Tane was the G.A.O.T.U., and he may or may not be identical with the Chaldean, Oannes. The language in which this wisdom religion was embodied is extremely archaic, but thanks to my having been taught in my youth, by an aged tohunga and relative, some of the symbols and mysteries, I understand many of the allusions and am acquainted with various signs. A knowledge of astronomy, being absolutely essential to a proper realisation of the principles of the order, and its adepts — tohunga-kokorangi — were constantly taught in observatories, its elements and phenomena, to those who were accepted for qualification.

Read more http://www.mastermason.com/hbresearch/pages/lecture11.htm (http://www.mastermason.com/hbresearch/pages/lecture11.htm)

No wonder the  G in the freemansony symbol, reminds me of maui's hook (Hei Matau) used in legend to fish up the north island.

For the Māori, the hei matau is taonga (a cultural treasure). It represents not only their land, but also prosperity, fertility and safe passage over water. They also denote the importance of fishing to Māori, and their relationship to Tangaroa god of the sea.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Hei_Matau.png)

(http://www.lojasaopaulo43.com.br/simbolos/freemason-symbol.jpg)

Being a fishing hook, reminds me of Jesus the fisher of men, what was his bait?, was it not his own blood?, the releasing of his own ignorance?

Maui in fishing up the north island is said to have blooded his own nose to use as bait, because his brothers would not share theirs, interesting connection?.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te_Ika-a-M%C4%81ui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te_Ika-a-M%C4%81ui)

No bull Astrology by Tara Greene

In the Age of Taurus, 6,000 years ago, Bull’s were worshipped. Agriculture  begun, and the Bull was the animal that enabled humanity to settle down from being nomadic. In Ancient Egypt they celebrated the festival of the Apis Bull for seven days. The scared bulls were paraded through the streets in a holy procession. Any child who smelled the breath of  the Apis bulls were considered to receieve the ability to predict the future.  The bulls themselves were considered oracles. Food was offered to the Apis bull while a question was asked, if the bull ate the food it was a good omen and if he rejected it that was considered  bad. Yes Apis bulls and bees are related.  Taurus was the sign, the constellation which heralded the Spring equinox in ancient Egypt, not Aries as we are accustomed to.

http://infinitynow.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/earth-day3-day-new-moontaurus-monthno-bull-astrology-by-tara-greene/ (http://infinitynow.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/earth-day3-day-new-moontaurus-monthno-bull-astrology-by-tara-greene/)

Listen to the People. Talking with an Extinct Race. Part 1

“There are about 2,000 Ngati Hotu left. I hope more will come forward when they read this story. Of my generation of our family, there are only four left – me, my brother and two sisters. There are 800 in our whanau. When the seven warrior waka arrived in New Zealand, my people were here. Our history says that our people first came to Aotearoa a long time back from what is now called Iran. If you go there today, the women still have moko, the black lips. Our people came here through Borneo.”

Monica jokes about her curved “Mediterranean” nose. Her mother taught her the Ngati Hotu language, a tongue that she says that is quite unlike Maori. Linguists have taken no note of this vital link with the ancient history of New Zealand. How could they, when Ngati Hotu were said to be extinct?

Maori and Egyptian Tattooing

Through the kindness of the Otago Witness, we are enabled to reproduce some pictures showing the similarity of the tattoo marks in some women in Assouan, Upper Egypt and the ordinary kauae or chin tattooing of Maori women. Figure 4 is a Maori woman, the other three are Egyptians. These sketches were made by Captain Robley, the well-known authority upon Maori art. Capt. Robley also found certain ornamental designs on Egyptian mummies, identical with Maori patterns.”

(http://www.elocal.co.nz/Articles/d66651d0-c805-4122-a074-5ec811805bda.jpg)

http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~266~title~Listen_to_the_People._Talking_with_an_Extinct_Race._Part_1.html (http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~266~title~Listen_to_the_People._Talking_with_an_Extinct_Race._Part_1.html)

Taurus pulls at me personally as i was born in the center of Taurus, May the force(4th) be with you 1977, year of the serpent, so i see this year of the serpent very relevant to me, and i am anticipating  the up coming influences of the serpent month (November-January),  with comet Ison(eye son/mind,3rd eye?), about and expected to shine, it should be interesting.

Ophiuchus the serpent bearer

In contrast to Orion, it is in the period November–January (summer in the Southern Hemisphere, winter in the Northern Hemisphere) when Ophiuchus is in the daytime sky and thus not visible at most latitudes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus)

http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/serpent-mound-featured-in-ohio-archaeology-month-poster/#comment-1117 (http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/serpent-mound-featured-in-ohio-archaeology-month-poster/#comment-1117)

Enjoy the links :)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 19, 2013, 01:08:32 PM
Hello Ra, and congratulations on your new wee boy.  I am enjoying reading your articles........Laraine :)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 19, 2013, 07:11:03 PM
Hello Laraine, and thank you, He is doing great.

Been enjoying the Culdian books/writings, look forward to sharing thoughts about it in relevant threads :)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on October 19, 2013, 08:21:15 PM
What is of interest for me is here, is the connection to Maori and the southern part of Sumeria, and Uru, known as Ur of the Chaldees.

Uru is the name of one of the homelands of the maori.

THE ORIGIN OF THE MAORI.

THE HIDDEN HOMELAND OF THE MAORI, AND ITS PROBABLE LOCATION

THE identification of the original home of the Polynesian race, to which the Maori of New Zealand belongs, is a matter that has long interested ethnologists. The unquestionably deep interest it has aroused has sprung from several sources. In the first place we know that the ancestors of the Maori have been the most daring and successful deep sea neolithic voyagers of whom we have any record. We know that they have, in past centuries, traversed the vast Pacific Ocean in their rude carvel-built craft in every direction. Knowing nought of compass or metals, they opened up the rolling sea roads, and crosshatched the Great Ocean of Kiwa with the wake of their swift gliding prau. Yet again we know that the Maori was in occupation of a greater portion of the surface of the earth than any other old-time race. We know that he was found in sole occupation of an area of 5,000 by 4,500 miles of the Pacific region, that he has still many colonies extant in Melanesia and Micronesia, and that faint echoes of his ancient speech are heard from far off Madagascar. To these causes of interest may be added that produced by the remarkable mentality of the Maori, and its manifestations and results. His many historical traditions, his spiritual concepts, his elaborate sacerdotal method of conserving and teaching esoteric knowledge, his systems of sociology, cosmogony, anthropogeny and mythology, all possess elements of deep interest to thinking minds. Above all, these institutions, usages, beliefs, arts, and other activities, tend to cast much light on the development of civilisation, the evolution of human culture.

And what of the Maori, the Polynesian himself? What sayeth the descendant of the courageous sea rovers who broke out the water trails from the ever loved homeland. We know that to the Maori, more so than to us, is it truly the hidden homeland. He tells us that that land lies far away to the west, or north-west, that his forbears steered for the rising sun when seeking new homes in the vast ocean. He speaks of that homeland as Hawaiki, as Atia, as Tawhiti, as Uru, as Irihia, as Mataora, and other less known names.

With regard to the land of Uru, from which the party of migrants came eastward to the hot land of Irihia, we can locate but one region of that name if we assume that Irihia is the Vrihia of ancient days. In the southern part of Sumeria, near the mouth of the Euphrates river, as then situated, existed about 2800 B.C. the flourishing state of Uru, known as Ur of the Chaldees to readers of the Scriptures. The correct form of this name is Uru, as given in Conder's “Rise of Man.” Of this place the patron deity was Sin, the personified form of the moon, a name that calls to mind Sina, the widely known moon goddess of Polynesia. She is known as Hina to the Maori of New Zealand, where, as in ancient Egypt, the moon goddess is the patron deity of women, presiding over childbirth and the art of weaving.

The Hawaiian Polynesians have preserved a tradition of a land or region called Ulu-nui that lay adjacent to the old home of their ancestors. In our New Zealand dialect this name would appear as Uru-nui (Great Uru). It is not my intention to proclaim that the homeland of the Maori, that is to say of the Polynesian race, has been located, I merely draw attention to these interesting traditions and other data, and await further evidence. When we come to examine the institutions, myths, beliefs, concepts and ritual of the Maori, we shall find many analogies with those of southern Asia.

The late Judge Fenton, in his “Suggestions for a History of the Maori People,” considers that Ulunui refers to Ur of the Chaldees. The word uru in vernacular Maori speech means “west,” a significant and interesting fact, when we consider the relative positions of India and southern Sumeria.

The Polynesians maintain that their forbears ever sought the rising sun, the red road of Tane, the east, after leaving the homeland. And that is why their spirits flit westward when death releases them!

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_32_1923/Volume_32%2C_No._125/Origin_of_the_Maori._The_hidden_homeland_of_the_Maori%2C_and_its_probable_location%2C_by_Elsdon_Best%2C_p_10-20/p1?action=null (http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_32_1923/Volume_32%2C_No._125/Origin_of_the_Maori._The_hidden_homeland_of_the_Maori%2C_and_its_probable_location%2C_by_Elsdon_Best%2C_p_10-20/p1?action=null)

Hmmm interesting, the red road of Tane, reminds me of the yellow brick road,  With Emerald city at the end, Pounamu the healing stone?
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 04, 2013, 01:17:19 PM
The Saga of Ancient Hebrew Explorers

Interestingly, ancient Maori traditions relate that since antiquity the Maoris have observed ceremonial and dietary laws very similar to those of the ancient Hebrews. They even kept the seventh day "Sabbath" as a day of rest! Also, every 7 times 7 years -- or 49 years -- they observed a Jubilee Year similar to that of the ancient Hebrews." These similarities simply cannot be explained away as "mere coincidence"! The Maoris, like the Hebrews, even had a "sacred month" given over to Harvest thanksgiving, corresponding to the Hebrew month of Tishri and the Festival of Tabernacles.

http://hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm (http://hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm)

Very interesting the fact that these traditions were even  observed here in the first place, as there is a lot of protocol regarding priestly knowledge for such observances to be observed properly, giving a clue to the people that my ancestors possibly were. The knowledge of such observances also has connections and relevance to aspects of the kabbalah system :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical))
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 04, 2013, 11:52:04 PM
I think its getting a bit beyond the bounds of reality to imagine that the Maori are Hebrew. Genetically, Maori are from Taiwan.
Perhaps any resemblance to Hebrew tradition is either coincidental, or taken from NZ's first inhabitants, who were insular Kelts that still had Israelite traditions.
Hebrew dietary law forbids the eating of human flesh, swine, and shellfish.
Maori show none of the physical traits of Hebrew descended peoples.
I could go on, but its quite boring as I've been down this track many times before with Maori, and other groups who want to lay claim to Hebrew Descent.
I did wonder if soon this wouldn't come up.
A bit disappointing really.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 05, 2013, 02:54:22 AM
I am sorry you are disappointed sha,ul, as for me i am excited, to learn more about my ancestors, because where ever the traditions came from, they are still the traditions of my ancestors, which tells me a great deal about them, the more i learn about them the more i learn about myself, which as a seeker is my ultimate quest, in that quest i have the need to discover my roots, my whakapapa, do you know how frustrating it is to have so many conflicting accounts of history, some say Maori are from Taiwan some say Iran, some say Scotland, some say India , some say American Indians, some say south Americas, some the land of the turtle, some say Aryan others Egypt and on and on it goes.

Please forgive me if my search for my roots and my quest to reveal them is quite boring to you.

I can not help what my ancestors where, and i am not to blame if they had the same traditions as your ancestors, but it appears that some of your ancestors traditions where not exclusively theirs. It is quite possible our ancestors had a common origin

Maori show none of the physical traits of Hebrew descended peoples.

Mr. R. J. Casey states that the ancestors of the Polynesians, in the dim past, came from Ur in Chaldea, the land of the two rivers, the Euphrates and the Tigris.1 That there is some link of connection between the Maori and Hebrew and Semitic race is suggested by the Jewish features seen in some of the Maoris. Taiaroa of Otakou, for instance, had a striking Jewish cast of features. Many of the Maori customs resemble Jewish practices. The law of utu, satisfaction or payment for an injury, “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” seems to compare with ancient Jewish traditions. Tapu, sacred, set apart or under restriction, is another resemblance.

Certain of the Maori customs remind one of the marriage customs described in the Old Testament. A comparison of the Jewish ceremonial law, as embodied in the Old Testament Scriptures, with the customs of the Maori people, presents many points of agreement.

The Rev. R. Taylor mentions some of the resemblances: “the younger brother taking his elder brother's widow as a wife. The nearest male relation marrying the widow of the deceased husband who had no brother living, as Obed married Ruth; the elder brother caring for his sister as his right; the touching of food; God present in the whirlwind; all unclean who touched a corpse; the custom of betrothing infants, and the weeping and lamentation over the death of a friend.”

Watkin writes in his Journal, “When a New Zealander dies his wife is taken by his brother.” Many other resemblances could be mentioned. The Rev. Charles Creed mentions that a priest “is particularly interested in Christianity and compares the sacred history with their own traditions, remarking on the traditional events which seem analogous to those in the sacred volume.”

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-PybMaor-t1-body-d2.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-PybMaor-t1-body-d2.html)

Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 05, 2013, 10:38:39 AM
Kia ora Ra,
Mate, relly, its not that your search for your roots is boring to me, but we Jews are asailed almost it seems, by different groups claiming Hebrew descent, or saying that "they" are the "real" Jews, or that todays Jews, & Israelites, are not the "real one's". You'd be gobsmacked, of you knew, as I do from experience, how many times over a year I have to listen to somebody bang their gong abut theirs, or somebody else theory on the matter.
Now, if the Maori indeed have picked up some Hebrew tradition, it seems obvious to me that they picked it up while living under the mana of the Waitaha. And retained some of what they had picked up after they had ethnicly cleansed them from New Zealand.
As for your frustration, I can understand it bro, and if there is any way I can help, I will do my earnest best to do that for you.
But we Jews get a bit tired of others trying to jump into our Waka, when they have no real claim to their seat. We don't mind sharing, but you have to become one of us first, so to speak, by conversion. Not that I know why anybody would want to do that, the Jewish path is demanding and takes a lot of personal sacrifice, and there are much easier roads one can take, with a lot less baggage attached to it.
The person who converts, and I have seen this, is treated like one of the family, but most often after a couple of years, they fall away. Which is why Rabbi's wil turn a prospective convert away three times before accepting them for conversion courses. Its a lot of work to teach somebody the halacha ,the way of life and traditions , only to have them fall away, as well as the concern for the person involved, that they will for the rest of their lives have knowledge that they cannot unlearn, and this could be a negative thing as far as future bad conscience goes.
I would gibe a longer reply , but I have to split for work.
Love and light to you bro, and may the Supreme Spirit, guide you in your search.
Shalom.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 05, 2013, 01:13:21 PM
Thank you sha'ul, Much Appreciated, I must say that the Supreme Spirit has guided well so far :)

Respectfully my brother, you are way out of your depth regarding Maori History and the source of our traditions, this is evident in the ignorance shown in some of the statements that you have made regarding maori, what I have revealed on this thread is just the tip of the ice berg.

A lot of the traditions similar to Jews came from the Maori lost homeland of Hawaki, sure some came from Waitaha, and like I have provided info on before, Waitaha were made up of many people.

I think you fail to see the significance of what I have provided for all to see, I do not seek your approval to be who I am, the knowledge and tradition of my ancestors is mine by birthright, just like your knowledge and traditions is yours by birthright.

I can understand why my line of thinking would be such a threat to Jews, good gosh we cant have an other group of people claiming the same source as ours, way easier to throw up the entrenched defence for other groups claiming decent, yet this is a important point I would like to make, I am not claiming decent from Jews or Hebrews, I am claiming that its very possible that (Maori)traditions come from the same source(a significant difference), all I have to claim and learn is everything Maori, if that happens to include traditions and knowledge that one group of people thought was exclusively theirs, then so be it, it is what it is.

I almost feel like in following my roots, reminds me of the eternal well/Spring of David, the deeper I go, the closer I get to the source, the fresher the water taste, the more my spirit is refreshed.

There are many more aspect of my research that will reveal a lot regarding many subjects of interest , I look forward to sharing more in due time.

Shalom sha'ul

May the force be with you!

:)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 06, 2013, 01:43:29 AM
Ra, its not a threat, I'm not threatened, just tired of hearing the beat of this same drum, and not only from you.
I don't claim to be any great sage on Maori tradition, which is not my spiritual path, so I'm not as you say, out of my depths, as I'm not trying to teach you about the origins of your people.
Maori need to face up to what they did to the Waitaha, and other groups that were here before them, like some kind of repentance, or admission of the treachery committed, against those who even according to your own legend, took your ancestors under their wing.
That is, in my opinion, why Maori feel so disenfranchised, because as a whole, they have invented a lot of their history, borrowed some from others, and swept probably the most important aspects under the carpet out of shame,  with help from the NZ government of course.
You know what I'm talking about.
You are the first brave Maori I have met, who is honest and  seeking the "real" truth of the past, but in what you will find, you may also find guilt and shame, never dealt  with, that hangs about your peoples necks like a stone.
A lot of Pakeha sense this guilt in the Maori national spirit, but misinterpret it as an untrustworthy character trait, which is blatantly wrong, as there are, and have always been, many trustworthy and honourable Maori.
You being one ehoa.
This is something I've wanted to put forward, it comes from the heart, and is supposed to get you thinking about the Karma Maori have brought upon themselves, for what they did, and their inability to face up to the guilt, and be released from the national shame , and karmic cycle, that still bedevils them today, as we can see in the crime stats, family violence stats, and poverty stats.
I respect you, and I wish you all G-d speed, in finding that which you seek.
Written with love, respect.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 06, 2013, 02:25:05 AM
Hi Ra,
Where is the comment you posted regarding somebodies theory that the current Jewish inhabitants of Israel, are not really genetically related to the ancient Hebrew ?
It was this comment, that got me so fired up in the first place.
Hence my comment about being bored with the topic, and tired of hearing the same old drum beating.
My comments kind of look out of context now that the post is no longer there.

Love and light.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 07, 2013, 02:49:02 AM
Hi Ra,
Where is the comment you posted regarding somebodies theory that the current Jewish inhabitants of Israel, are not really genetically related to the ancient Hebrew ?
It was this comment, that got me so fired up in the first place.
Hence my comment about being bored with the topic, and tired of hearing the same old drum beating.
My comments kind of look out of context now that the post is no longer there.

Love and light.

Hi friend, It only looks out of context because the comment and link you are referring too, is on a other thread :)

http://culdiantrust.org/culdianforums/index.php?topic=158.0 (http://culdiantrust.org/culdianforums/index.php?topic=158.0)

I understand sha'ul, and I hold nothing personally, thanks for sharing your knowledge and being you

Love and Light
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 15, 2015, 03:29:07 AM

Interesting relationships between the Babylonian and Maori moon god


With regard to the land of Uru, from which the party of migrants came eastward to the hot land of Irihia, we can locate but one region of that name if we assume that Irihia is the Vrihia of ancient days. In the southern part of Sumeria, near the mouth of the Euphrates river, as then situated, existed about 2800 B.C. the flourishing state of Uru, known as Ur of the Chaldees to readers of the Scriptures. The correct form of this name is Uru, as given in Conder's “Rise of Man.” Of this place the patron deity was Sin, the personified form of the moon, a name that calls to mind Sina, the widely known moon goddess of Polynesia. She is known as Hina to the Maori of New Zealand, where, as in ancient Egypt, the moon goddess is the patron deity of women, presiding over childbirth and the art of weaving.

The Hawaiian Polynesians have preserved a tradition of a land or region called Ulu-nui that lay adjacent to the old home of their ancestors. In our New Zealand dialect this name would appear as Uru-nui (Great Uru). It is not my intention to proclaim that the homeland of the Maori, that is to say of the Polynesian race, has been located, I merely draw attention to these interesting traditions and other data, and await further evidence. When we come to examine the institutions, myths, beliefs, concepts and ritual of the Maori, we shall find many analogies with those of southern Asia.

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document//Volume_32_1923/Volume_32,_No._125/Origin_of_the_Maori._The_hidden_homeland_of_the_Maori,_and_its_probable_location,_by_Elsdon_Best,_p_10-20/p1 (http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document//Volume_32_1923/Volume_32,_No._125/Origin_of_the_Maori._The_hidden_homeland_of_the_Maori,_and_its_probable_location,_by_Elsdon_Best,_p_10-20/p1)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 17, 2015, 09:21:11 PM
I think the moon is a under rated factor that can make a big difference in our everyday life, just by being aware of some of the principles associated with the moon and how it effects our lives. Personally within my own life and family I have introduced a Technology free day, approximately every 7 days in relation to the moon phases, these days are days we try within reason to be self efficient and not use power tools such as computers and electrical devices etc, it serves multiple purposes, 1 creates a awareness of the moon and its cycles a good chance to study cause and effect, 2, prepares our family for natural disasters, return of destroyer etc, by keeping us prepared and self efficient, and 3 its a good way to get my children off their devices, and have found we do a lot more things as a family on these days, like playing monopoly going for walks etc.

Some of the traditions relating to the moon as practiced by Waitaha

'Some follow the Sun, but our lives are tied to the Tides of the Moon'

We wait upon the tides. The tides within us and the tides outside. We wait upon Marama; we wait upon the Moon. we count our lives in nights while others count theirs in days, for we follow the track of the Moon not the track of the Sun. We move with Marama not Te Ra.

The Tides of Life flow from marama. He reaches out from the heavens to touch the seas to make them rise and fall. he urges the long rivers to flow across the vastness of the two oceans and calls for the sap to rise within the tall trees of the forests.

And the tides within us ebb and flow. the seed tides of women and men surge to the power of Marama. The fullness of the Moon release great energy and we plant and build, fish and hunt, learn and teach and think and act as at no other time. And when he wanes we draw into ourselves to plan the things we will accomplish in the returning light.

Song of Waitaha
The Historys of a Nation
pg 67

Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 18, 2015, 04:42:34 AM
Found some common themes in regards to the whirlpool and the Great River. How common are these Whirlpools?

We sailed with a large company towards the West and had nothing to fear, except the whirlpool, for the Red Men with us knew the way of the waters. For long days we saw only the sea, and the landsighting birds all came back.

We went out through the mouth of the sea into the sea of the Great River. Past the lands of white copper to the Place of Painted Men, where we drew up the ship and staked them.

Chapter Twelve
(The Rolls of Record -6)
verse 11 - 12
The book of the sons of fire
Kolbrin

The mention of the whirlpool is of interest to me as it resonates with the waitaha 'octopus', this too was a thing to be feared.

Long Tentacles Reach Across the Ocean

'And now we come to the dreaded place, the waters of the Octopus'

We tend the sail and enjoy the calmer waters of the dolphin. And we think ahead to the dangers of the trial. Three times we will close in the lair of the Octopus before our journey is done. Te Rangihouhia feels the song of the sea running through the great steering oar and looks to the carved taurapa and sees we near our first encounter with the long tentacles that seek to drag us to the deeps. Constantly scanning the waters he searches for Muturangi, the keeper of the thirty six houses of the heavens. He lives on the horizons and the Octopus is his Mokai, his chosen one. The lair of the Octopus is Te Wheke o Muturangi, 'the end of the sky' where the waters rise in exultation to greet the stars. It is an awesome place.

The Octopus is born of mighty parents; two powerful rivers, ancient and irresistible tides that meet and mate to create a terrifying whirlpool with eight arms radiating out as far as the eye can see. It is not a creature. It is a place of turmoil where the great currents contend to bring disaster to the unwary.

Song of Waitaha
Traditions of a Nation
pg 75


Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 02, 2015, 12:47:26 AM
Some interesting similarity's, again demonstrating the Sumerian connection to new Zealand.

Of interest is also the mention of the serpent and eagle worship, which is mentioned several times in the kolbrin.

URU-The Lost Civilisation of Australia
Excerpts From The Book-Chapter 12
Gods Of The South-Culture Founders Of The Stone-Age



The Sun-Worship Serpent and Eagle altars of Australia [ie Nim and I-na] parallel others in Melanesia also associated with Sun-Worship. In all ancient Sun-Worship religions the Eagle was the messenger of the Sun God, and so it was also with the Uruans. The Serpent and Eagle Sun-Worship symbolism is found across New Guinea in one form or another. In Papua New Guinea a giant-size stone altar carved in the form of a snake is reminiscent of others in the Shouten Islands, Biem area, where the natives worship a Sun-God in the form of a snake called by them ‘Uruan’.

http://www.rexgilroy.com/uru_chapter12.html (http://www.rexgilroy.com/uru_chapter12.html)

Here to is a other great link, connecting ancient maori history to India and the sumerian city of Ur.

SOME ADDITIONAL DATA THEREON, CULLED FROM TRADITIONS PRESERVED BY THE TAKITUMU TRIBES OF NEW ZEALAND

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_36_1927/Volume_36%2C_No._144/Irihia._The_homeland_of_the_Polynesians._Some_additional_data..._by_Elsdon_Best%2C_p_330-362?action=null (http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_36_1927/Volume_36%2C_No._144/Irihia._The_homeland_of_the_Polynesians._Some_additional_data..._by_Elsdon_Best%2C_p_330-362?action=null)

Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 03, 2015, 02:46:06 AM
Quote
It is not my intention to proclaim that the homeland of the Maori, that is to say of the Polynesian race, has been located, I merely draw attention to these interesting traditions and other data, and await further evidence.

All very interesting stuff here Ra.  Had not heard any of this, so all very new.  Indeed, I await further evidence with interest.

Thank you for these posts.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 03, 2015, 11:18:25 PM
Quote
It is not my intention to proclaim that the homeland of the Maori, that is to say of the Polynesian race, has been located, I merely draw attention to these interesting traditions and other data, and await further evidence.

All very interesting stuff here Ra.  Had not heard any of this, so all very new.  Indeed, I await further evidence with interest.

Thank you for these posts.

Your welcome lance and Hi.

That paper was written in 1923, you would think somebody would have picked up this line of research and run with it, there is a lot of evidence out there, also a lot that is circumstantial, one just has to know where to look  ;)

Now this is a interesting link, a women who claims her tribe came from Iran, just around the corner to ancient Babylon, but here before the arrival of the 7 waka.

http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~1108~title~Changing_Our_NZ_History._DNA_to_Rock_the_Nation_Part_2.html (http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~1108~title~Changing_Our_NZ_History._DNA_to_Rock_the_Nation_Part_2.html)

According to Monica, there are approximately 2,000 Ngati Hotu left, although there has been speculation that they were an extinct race - which Monica laughs at. “There are 800 in our whanau. When the seven warrior waka arrived in New Zealand, my people were here. Our history says that our people first came to Aotearoa a long time back from what is now called Iran


Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 03, 2015, 11:35:49 PM
Hi to you and yours, my friend.  I do hope you and the family are all well.

There is indeed a lot of diverse evidence out there purporting the origins of Maori.  There are those of my own who say we come from South America via Easter Island and then downward to New Zealand.  This, though, could quite easily relate itself into your last four posts as I am sure movements of Maori were pretty widespread and, apparently, not at all uncommon.

An interesting story Monica has related.  Very similar to the story my brother's ex partner relates regarding her Mori ori whakapapa.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on April 08, 2015, 05:54:36 PM
Thanks Lance, yes we are doing well :)

Yes very interesting what waitaha has to say about the maoriori also in relationship to the ones that came from Ur, waitaha say that the maorior and the Uru Kehu became one, waitaha also says that it was a women that lead the Maoriori here, she was searching for the Cord of life the navel of the world. Kiwa was of Uru kehu.

Waitaha say the maoriori came from the land of the great Turtle(South America)

So we got Kiwa of the Uru Kehu from the East(Ur) Joining as one in NZ with Hotu Matua of the maoriori from the West(South America)


Quote
'And Kiwa brought his people to a new home'

Kiwa sailed out of the east to explore the water under the star of Rehua. He looked on the vastness of the surging ocean and his heart responded to the restless spirit of Tangaroa. And he voyaged towards the setting sun where the lands beyond the horizon whispered his name.

We are Uru Kehu and Kiwa was out first Pae Arahi, our greatTrail Maker.

Song of Waitaha - The Histories of A Nation


What i find interesting about Hotu Matua is her reason for coming here, waitaha says she came to find the birthing cord of the world, she found it here! I distinctly remember something similar in the kolbrin, can anyone help in finding were that verse is located?, i could be wrong but i am sure i saw something.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on August 20, 2015, 12:15:46 AM
(http://www.forgottenbooks.com/bookcover/0240/The_Aryan_Maori_1000119784.jpg)

Interesting book relating the relationship between Maori and the ancient Aryan Language, quite revealing about the Maori past and his former environment, where he has memory of the the lion, and other things found on the other side of the world all found within the Maori language.  A highly recommended read.

Quote from the author

I now proceed to assert —
Positively,

1. That the Maori is an Aryan.

2. That his language and traditions prove him to

be the descendant of a pastoral people,
afterwards warlike and migratory.

3. That his language has preserved, in an almost

inconceivable purity, the speech of his
Aryan forefathers, and compared witb
which the Greek and Latin tongues are
mere corruptions.

4. That this language has embalmed the memory
of animals, implements, &c., the actual
sight of which has been lost to the Maori
for centuries.
Probably,

1. That he left India about four thousand years

ago.

2. That he has been in New Zealand almost as

long as that time.

To prove these bold assertions is my task in the
following chapters.


The Aryan Maori

by Edward Tregear

http://archive.org/stream/aryanmaori00treg/aryanmaori00treg_djvu.txt (http://archive.org/stream/aryanmaori00treg/aryanmaori00treg_djvu.txt)
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on March 26, 2016, 01:48:15 PM
Hi Lance, its possible :)

There is a Definite Megalithic Track across the Old World from the Atlantic to the Pacific

This Track passes from Japan over Micronesia and — Polynesia to the American Coast

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d1-d4.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d1-d4.html)

(8) Thereafter the megalithic route across the Pacific is broken and incontinuous. Not till Samoa is reached, away to the south-east, do we pick it up again, for between lay the coral groups of the Marshalls and the Gilberts, the islands of which have not the permanence of volcanic structure, but are the work of the coral insect, at the mercy of storm and billow. The Fale-o-le-fee, or House of the Fairy, behind Apia, is an ellipse of giant stone columns, no mean rival of our Stonehenge. In the Tongan group, to the south of Samoa, we have again the size and the permanency of ancient land, and here we have the gigantic truncated pyramids which are called the tombs of the Tui-Tongas, and the colossal trilithon or gateway composed of three giant stones. It is useless seeking for such ancient structures in the low coral groups like the Paumotas and the Austral Archipelago.

(9) The track is again resumed away to the east in Huahine, one of the Society group, where a dolmen or colossal stone altar exists, and in Tahiti a gigantic truncated pyramid. To the north-west, in Hawaii, are the huge temples of Waikiki and Punepa, whilst to the south and south-east we have the minute Rapa, Pitcairn, and Easter Islands, lying in somewhat the same latitude, 27 to 28 south of the Equator, the two page 5former separated by more than a thousand miles of ocean, the two latter by some fifteen hundred miles; and in each of them there are unmortared stone monuments. To complete the megalithic story of the Pacific, we have two specimens of this ancient type of stone structure in the North Island of New Zealand, one a miniature Stonehenge, with huge blocks standing six or seven feet above the ground, at Kerikeri, in the Bay of Islands, and another near Ateamuri, to the north of Taupo, consisting of fifty great stones set erect in the earth.

Clear Evidence of a Fair Race having been Absorbed
by the Polynesians

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html)

(12) But it is in Polynesia proper that most evidences of a primeval fair race have been gathered. Taken as a whole the islanders of this region have a singularly European appearance. What struck all the early voyagers was the fine faces and regular features of most of the islanders, and some of them broke into raptures over the beauty of the women and the stalwart grace of the men. They constitute one of the tallest races in the world. Their hair is generally abundant, and generally wavy, never kinky, like the hair of the negroids, and never rank and coarse, like that of the mongoloids and they can unlike these two divisions of page 32mankind, have, if they wish, plenty of hair on the face. The colour of it is generally dark, and amongst many of them a certain proportion of the children have brown hair, which changes into black only at full maturity. The complexion is, as a rule, brown, but it is very often olive, and no darker than that of the Southern Italians; and colour is as much a matter of climate and food as of race. Dr. Hamy, the French anthropologist, finds from new measurements that "in the east, north, and south they present a long-headedness very pronounced." Other observers incline to place them amongst the medium-headed men, neither very round nor very long. But the skulls that the Americans took out of the burial platforms of Easter Island are in appearance decidedly long.

(13) There are even cases of a cross with a blonde Caucasian race amongst the Maoris, and especially amongst the Ureweras, who have seen little of Europeans till lately; the urukehu, or red-headed, families and individuals are not infrequent, and the red-head is generally accepted as an indication of a cross between a blonde and brunette race, whilst it is acknowledged that this tribe, not long after arriving in the Matatua canoe, passed inland to the highlands round Lake Waikaremoana, and, struggling with the inhabitants of the mountain and forest land, ultimately amalgamated with them. In that other long-isolated district, the King Country, near the harbour of Kawhia, there are many of these rufous people, and, at the same time, the tribes there speak of their ancestors, the immigrants of the Tainui canoe, amalgamating with the aboriginals, the Ngatimokotorea. And they say that in the fore part of the Tainui a fairy woman called Te Peri had command. The aboriginals of the Ureweras are called by them the Toi; and Mr. Elsdon Best quotes a Maori description of this primitive people as peaceful and good, a contrast to the restless warriors that had come in amongst them from Polynesia.


The Fairy Peoples of Maori Legend are all European-
like, and in all Countries Fairies are the Defeated
Aborigines

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html)

(14) A significant substitution by the Ureweras, when the urukehu are mentioned, is the word Turehu, which is used by the Maoris as almost interchangeable with Patupaiarehe in the sense of a fairy or beneficent supernatural being. The Turehu are also represented as an aboriginal people absorbed by the Polynesian immigrants forty generations, or about a thousand years, ago. They had come, according to White's "Ancient History of the Maori," "from the other side of the ocean," and conquered the Tutu-mai-ao, who had before them conquered the Kui, the people that got the land from Maui, when he fished it out of the sea.
Good read, i am a descendant of the Urewera aboriginies spoken of in your quote.Today my tribe is known as Tuhoe who are a mix of the Ancestors of Mataatua, a waka of the great migration, and Nga Potiki the Aboriginies of the Urewera(as well as other aboriginie tribes ie Te Hapuoneone, Te Tini o Toi)Whose origins I shall go into a little more.

Before we move on it should be stated  Nga Potiki(aboriginies)were not migrants from distance lands like those of the great migration, but were instead born in New Zealand from a union between two gods namely Te Maunga and Hinepukohurangi.From what I know the pakeha authors of the story I give were sometimes given false information as not to confuse his undeveloped mind of the tall tales told by natives.The story I give is the beginning of the urewera Aboriginies as told by my tipuna and recorded by Elsdon Best.(note Tutakangahau described in the link below is my 3xgreat grandfather who is pictured wearing the korowai)

In times long past away, when men held strange powers, and godlike beings dwelt on earth, there lived one Hine-pukohu-rangi. She was the personification of mist and fog. Hine-pukohu-rangi is said to have lured Te Maunga (the Mountain range) to earth at a place called Onini, which is on the line of road from Galatea to Waikare-moana, at Ruatahuna, on the left bank of the Mana-o-rongo stream, and opposite Te Kau-tawhero and Māna-tēpā. A clump of New Zealand flax, looked upon as being tapu, formerly marked the spot where Te Maunga came to earth.

From the union of the Mountain and the Mist Maiden sprang Potiki the First, who appears to have been an ordinary specimen of the genus homo, and from whom descended the tribe known as Nga-Potiki. Such is the origin of this people who have held the rugged forest wilds of Tuhoeland for many generations. They are the offspring of supernatural beings, of personifications of nature, sayeth the Maori. They have sprung from their own savage ranges, and from the white fog clouds which envelop them. They are begotten of Mother Nature. They are the Children of the Mist.

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document?wid=958&page=0&action=searchresult&target= (http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document?wid=958&page=0&action=searchresult&target=)

Next I give you the geneoalogy of the atua Hinepukohurangi mother of the Urewera aboriginie.The names in the top left hand corner are of most importance and should be taken note of as they include Hinepukohurangi and her famed ancestors.

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/popup.php?wid=958&pn=iii&action= (http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/popup.php?wid=958&pn=iii&action=)

Counting generations back from Potiki(human child of Hinepukohurangi) in the geneoalogy above we only have 12 ancestors.Now trying to explain the union of atua creating humans to a non maori is testing enough, having to explain that 12 generations before Potiki(Primary human ancestor of Nga Potiki) we start dealing with a primal parent of this universe in Ranginui is flat out insane.This is the same Ranginui who begat Tane, Tangaroa Tawhirimatea.The enormity in trying to grasp the concept of Nga Potiki and its spiritual origins and geneaology is expressed in the writings of author Elsdon Best.

Nga Potiki were of a peaceful nature although records of war were recorded.Hence there inability to thwart off attacks made by the migrants of Haiwaiiki, namely the Mataatua people whom the Nga Potiki went onto amalgamate with.It should be noted that unlike many of the other Aboriginies of New Zealand, Nga Potiki were not pushed to the brink of extinction, nor were they killed in great numbers.Instead the Mataatua migrant chose to marry the aboriginies, and to this day the majority of Nga Potiki aboriginie hapu and marae still exist with geneoalogy customs still intact and taught to children of learning age through song, geneaolgy geography etc.Infact one could show you the exact resting place of Te Maunga where he was lured to from heaven by the beauty of Hinepukohurangi.A simple drive is all thats needed to find this piece of history.

The importance of the Nga Potiki Aboriginie taught to their descendants lies in the story of Maui and his fish.The ancestral mountain of Nga Potiki(Tuhoe as there known today)Maungapohatu lies directly on the heart of the great fish, rendering the old aboriginies the kaitiaki of the heart of Te ika a Maui.Further teachings to our people explain that the fish of Maui can still exist if the head of the fish(Wellington)were to be destroyed, the same goes for Te hiku o te Ika(the tail, Far North)if destroyed the islands continue to exist.But if Te Manawa o Te Ika(The Heart, Maungapohatu)were for some reason destroyed, Aotearoa as we know it would cease to exist.

After reading the pakeha author and his opening statements about Nga Potiki in the link above, one would believe the descendants have no real sense or ideas of there history.Yet Elsdon Best goes onto write enough information about Nga Potiki to keep the reader studying its contents years of research to comb through.

Next I want to touch on the statement made by you on the fair haired people in your quote, not only did they exist there decsendants to this day are still walking around and are STILL clearly defined by their fine features and coloured hair.Separating them from others within our iwi is easily done through whakapapa and there affiliation with specific hapu who are mentioned in stories from pre european settlement as those of urukehu origin.The stories I mention clearly define a fair skinned people of coloured hair who partook in the normal activities of everyday life days of old.In fact my kuia resembled that of a urukehu, described by my ancestors to the nosey authors of the 19th century, whos geneaology can be traced back to the mythological natives.She being one of many I know to have inherited the finer features and coloured hair described in old tales told by my ancestors.Evidence of the existance of urukehu within my iwi can be found in the link below.

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Stout75-t9-body-d1-d10.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Stout75-t9-body-d1-d10.html)

Take note of Matangaua described as urukehu(in above link)being of Ngai Te Riu hapu belonging to the Iwi Nga Potiki.The tribe whose origin isnt that of the migrants of Aotearoa, but whos origin was born in Aotearoa of divine pro creation as explained at the beginning of this korero.If one wishs to study the urukehu of Ngai Te Riu he would only have to visit one of the many marae belonging to Ngai Te Riu in my ancestral land.There he would see for himself living ancestors of the urukehu with described features on full display.It must be noted that Ngai Te Riu was a Aboriginie hapu of Nga Potiki which means its beginning is of pre migration times.Note I am of the Ngai Te Riu line through my kuia who I mentioned above.

Also the links I have left are accounts of stories told by my ancestors to pakeha authors, whom I am told by my elders were never fully trusted with the teachings of my people.If one wished to fully grasp our history hed have to immerse himself deep into everyday life of tuhoe culture.For the countless books left behind by pakeha merely scratch the surface of lore taught from the beginning of time.Although most of the information Ive read pertaining to my iwi is true, a lot of whakapapa is misplaced, place names and events mixed which is why such information from these books should be used as a guide.

After reading your history of aboriginie people and such I thought it be a good idea to share my history of my iwi and its aboriginie history.What intrigued me were your descriptions of urukehu being that of a myth, where in my hapu that knowledge flows through our veins taught to us with whakapapa from our ancestors, coupled with descendants who to this day still display the foreign features of those described in myth and legend.

Also i sensed a hint of disdain(maybe unintentional)for those of the great migration as the cause of lost history customs  and culture of the placid Aboriginies.Luckily for the aboriginie of Aotearoa we were blessed with the might of the warriors of Hawaiiki.For without them I fear the placid nature of our aboriginies would have easily been overthrown and overtaken by the european settler and his musket as was the fate of the placid aboriginie of Australia.The resistance shown by our Hawaiiki line is the reason we still have our marae, our language, and our culture.The Treaty that united the Natives and The Crown(as useless as it seems to be)as we know it would be non existent, as would this conversation and any information pertaining to it.
The current knowledge of Waitaha or Nga Potiki history would have surely been but a memory of those gone before.

Id like to discuss further as Ive barely scratched the surface of this korero.When dealing with history I see its primary function as a key to answer questions of the future.
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on November 17, 2020, 03:24:55 PM
Hi Lance, its possible :)

There is a Definite Megalithic Track across the Old World from the Atlantic to the Pacific

This Track passes from Japan over Micronesia and — Polynesia to the American Coast

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d1-d4.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d1-d4.html)

(8) Thereafter the megalithic route across the Pacific is broken and incontinuous. Not till Samoa is reached, away to the south-east, do we pick it up again, for between lay the coral groups of the Marshalls and the Gilberts, the islands of which have not the permanence of volcanic structure, but are the work of the coral insect, at the mercy of storm and billow. The Fale-o-le-fee, or House of the Fairy, behind Apia, is an ellipse of giant stone columns, no mean rival of our Stonehenge. In the Tongan group, to the south of Samoa, we have again the size and the permanency of ancient land, and here we have the gigantic truncated pyramids which are called the tombs of the Tui-Tongas, and the colossal trilithon or gateway composed of three giant stones. It is useless seeking for such ancient structures in the low coral groups like the Paumotas and the Austral Archipelago.

(9) The track is again resumed away to the east in Huahine, one of the Society group, where a dolmen or colossal stone altar exists, and in Tahiti a gigantic truncated pyramid. To the north-west, in Hawaii, are the huge temples of Waikiki and Punepa, whilst to the south and south-east we have the minute Rapa, Pitcairn, and Easter Islands, lying in somewhat the same latitude, 27 to 28 south of the Equator, the two page 5former separated by more than a thousand miles of ocean, the two latter by some fifteen hundred miles; and in each of them there are unmortared stone monuments. To complete the megalithic story of the Pacific, we have two specimens of this ancient type of stone structure in the North Island of New Zealand, one a miniature Stonehenge, with huge blocks standing six or seven feet above the ground, at Kerikeri, in the Bay of Islands, and another near Ateamuri, to the north of Taupo, consisting of fifty great stones set erect in the earth.

Clear Evidence of a Fair Race having been Absorbed
by the Polynesians

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html)

(12) But it is in Polynesia proper that most evidences of a primeval fair race have been gathered. Taken as a whole the islanders of this region have a singularly European appearance. What struck all the early voyagers was the fine faces and regular features of most of the islanders, and some of them broke into raptures over the beauty of the women and the stalwart grace of the men. They constitute one of the tallest races in the world. Their hair is generally abundant, and generally wavy, never kinky, like the hair of the negroids, and never rank and coarse, like that of the mongoloids and they can unlike these two divisions of page 32mankind, have, if they wish, plenty of hair on the face. The colour of it is generally dark, and amongst many of them a certain proportion of the children have brown hair, which changes into black only at full maturity. The complexion is, as a rule, brown, but it is very often olive, and no darker than that of the Southern Italians; and colour is as much a matter of climate and food as of race. Dr. Hamy, the French anthropologist, finds from new measurements that "in the east, north, and south they present a long-headedness very pronounced." Other observers incline to place them amongst the medium-headed men, neither very round nor very long. But the skulls that the Americans took out of the burial platforms of Easter Island are in appearance decidedly long.

(13) There are even cases of a cross with a blonde Caucasian race amongst the Maoris, and especially amongst the Ureweras, who have seen little of Europeans till lately; the urukehu, or red-headed, families and individuals are not infrequent, and the red-head is generally accepted as an indication of a cross between a blonde and brunette race, whilst it is acknowledged that this tribe, not long after arriving in the Matatua canoe, passed inland to the highlands round Lake Waikaremoana, and, struggling with the inhabitants of the mountain and forest land, ultimately amalgamated with them. In that other long-isolated district, the King Country, near the harbour of Kawhia, there are many of these rufous people, and, at the same time, the tribes there speak of their ancestors, the immigrants of the Tainui canoe, amalgamating with the aboriginals, the Ngatimokotorea. And they say that in the fore part of the Tainui a fairy woman called Te Peri had command. The aboriginals of the Ureweras are called by them the Toi; and Mr. Elsdon Best quotes a Maori description of this primitive people as peaceful and good, a contrast to the restless warriors that had come in amongst them from Polynesia.


The Fairy Peoples of Maori Legend are all European-
like, and in all Countries Fairies are the Defeated
Aborigines

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BroMaor-t1-body1-d4.html)

(14) A significant substitution by the Ureweras, when the urukehu are mentioned, is the word Turehu, which is used by the Maoris as almost interchangeable with Patupaiarehe in the sense of a fairy or beneficent supernatural being. The Turehu are also represented as an aboriginal people absorbed by the Polynesian immigrants forty generations, or about a thousand years, ago. They had come, according to White's "Ancient History of the Maori," "from the other side of the ocean," and conquered the Tutu-mai-ao, who had before them conquered the Kui, the people that got the land from Maui, when he fished it out of the sea.
Good read, i am a descendant of the Urewera aboriginies spoken of in your quote.Today my tribe is known as Tuhoe who are a mix of the Ancestors of Mataatua, a waka of the great migration, and Nga Potiki the Aboriginies of the Urewera(as well as other aboriginie tribes ie Te Hapuoneone, Te Tini o Toi)Whose origins I shall go into a little more.

Before we move on it should be stated  Nga Potiki(aboriginies)were not migrants from distance lands like those of the great migration, but were instead born in New Zealand from a union between two gods namely Te Maunga and Hinepukohurangi.From what I know the pakeha authors of the story I give were sometimes given false information as not to confuse his undeveloped mind of the tall tales told by natives.The story I give is the beginning of the urewera Aboriginies as told by my tipuna and recorded by Elsdon Best.(note Tutakangahau described in the link below is my 3xgreat grandfather who is pictured wearing the korowai)

In times long past away, when men held strange powers, and godlike beings dwelt on earth, there lived one Hine-pukohu-rangi. She was the personification of mist and fog. Hine-pukohu-rangi is said to have lured Te Maunga (the Mountain range) to earth at a place called Onini, which is on the line of road from Galatea to Waikare-moana, at Ruatahuna, on the left bank of the Mana-o-rongo stream, and opposite Te Kau-tawhero and Māna-tēpā. A clump of New Zealand flax, looked upon as being tapu, formerly marked the spot where Te Maunga came to earth.

From the union of the Mountain and the Mist Maiden sprang Potiki the First, who appears to have been an ordinary specimen of the genus homo, and from whom descended the tribe known as Nga-Potiki. Such is the origin of this people who have held the rugged forest wilds of Tuhoeland for many generations. They are the offspring of supernatural beings, of personifications of nature, sayeth the Maori. They have sprung from their own savage ranges, and from the white fog clouds which envelop them. They are begotten of Mother Nature. They are the Children of the Mist.

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document?wid=958&page=0&action=searchresult&target= (http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document?wid=958&page=0&action=searchresult&target=)

Next I give you the geneoalogy of the atua Hinepukohurangi mother of the Urewera aboriginie.The names in the top left hand corner are of most importance and should be taken note of as they include Hinepukohurangi and her famed ancestors.

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/popup.php?wid=958&pn=iii&action= (http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/popup.php?wid=958&pn=iii&action=)

Counting generations back from Potiki(human child of Hinepukohurangi) in the geneoalogy above we only have 12 ancestors.Now trying to explain the union of atua creating humans to a non maori is testing enough, having to explain that 12 generations before Potiki(Primary human ancestor of Nga Potiki) we start dealing with a primal parent of this universe in Ranginui is flat out insane.This is the same Ranginui who begat Tane, Tangaroa Tawhirimatea.The enormity in trying to grasp the concept of Nga Potiki and its spiritual origins and geneaology is expressed in the writings of author Elsdon Best.

Nga Potiki were of a peaceful nature although records of war were recorded.Hence there inability to thwart off attacks made by the migrants of Haiwaiiki, namely the Mataatua people whom the Nga Potiki went onto amalgamate with.It should be noted that unlike many of the other Aboriginies of New Zealand, Nga Potiki were not pushed to the brink of extinction, nor were they killed in great numbers.Instead the Mataatua migrant chose to marry the aboriginies, and to this day the majority of Nga Potiki aboriginie hapu and marae still exist with geneoalogy customs still intact and taught to children of learning age through song, geneaolgy geography etc.Infact one could show you the exact resting place of Te Maunga where he was lured to from heaven by the beauty of Hinepukohurangi.A simple drive is all thats needed to find this piece of history.

The importance of the Nga Potiki Aboriginie taught to their descendants lies in the story of Maui and his fish.The ancestral mountain of Nga Potiki(Tuhoe as there known today)Maungapohatu lies directly on the heart of the great fish, rendering the old aboriginies the kaitiaki of the heart of Te ika a Maui.Further teachings to our people explain that the fish of Maui can still exist if the head of the fish(Wellington)were to be destroyed, the same goes for Te hiku o te Ika(the tail, Far North)if destroyed the islands continue to exist.But if Te Manawa o Te Ika(The Heart, Maungapohatu)were for some reason destroyed, Aotearoa as we know it would cease to exist.

After reading the pakeha author and his opening statements about Nga Potiki in the link above, one would believe the descendants have no real sense or ideas of there history.Yet Elsdon Best goes onto write enough information about Nga Potiki to keep the reader studying its contents years of research to comb through.

Next I want to touch on the statement made by you on the fair haired people in your quote, not only did they exist there decsendants to this day are still walking around and are STILL clearly defined by their fine features and coloured hair.Separating them from others within our iwi is easily done through whakapapa and there affiliation with specific hapu who are mentioned in stories from pre european settlement as those of urukehu origin.The stories I mention clearly define a fair skinned people of coloured hair who partook in the normal activities of everyday life days of old.In fact my kuia resembled that of a urukehu, described by my ancestors to the nosey authors of the 19th century, whos geneaology can be traced back to the mythological natives.She being one of many I know to have inherited the finer features and coloured hair described in old tales told by my ancestors.Evidence of the existance of urukehu within my iwi can be found in the link below.

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Stout75-t9-body-d1-d10.html (http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Stout75-t9-body-d1-d10.html)

Take note of Matangaua described as urukehu(in above link)being of Ngai Te Riu hapu belonging to the Iwi Nga Potiki.The tribe whose origin isnt that of the migrants of Aotearoa, but whos origin was born in Aotearoa of divine pro creation as explained at the beginning of this korero.If one wishs to study the urukehu of Ngai Te Riu he would only have to visit one of the many marae belonging to Ngai Te Riu in my ancestral land.There he would see for himself living ancestors of the urukehu with described features on full display.It must be noted that Ngai Te Riu was a Aboriginie hapu of Nga Potiki which means its beginning is of pre migration times.Note I am of the Ngai Te Riu line through my kuia who I mentioned above.

Also the links I have left are accounts of stories told by my ancestors to pakeha authors, whom I am told by my elders were never fully trusted with the teachings of my people.If one wished to fully grasp our history hed have to immerse himself deep into everyday life of tuhoe culture.For the countless books left behind by pakeha merely scratch the surface of lore taught from the beginning of time.Although most of the information Ive read pertaining to my iwi is true, a lot of whakapapa is misplaced, place names and events mixed which is why such information from these books should be used as a guide.

After reading your history of aboriginie people and such I thought it be a good idea to share my history of my iwi and its aboriginie history.What intrigued me were your descriptions of urukehu being that of a myth, where in my hapu that knowledge flows through our veins taught to us with whakapapa from our ancestors, coupled with descendants who to this day still display the foreign features of those described in myth and legend.

Also i sensed a hint of disdain(maybe unintentional)for those of the great migration as the cause of lost history customs  and culture of the placid Aboriginies.Luckily for the aboriginie of Aotearoa we were blessed with the might of the warriors of Hawaiiki.For without them I fear the placid nature of our aboriginies would have easily been overthrown and overtaken by the european settler and his musket as was the fate of the placid aboriginie of Australia.The resistance shown by our Hawaiiki line is the reason we still have our marae, our language, and our culture.The Treaty that united the Natives and The Crown(as useless as it seems to be)as we know it would be non existent, as would this conversation and any information pertaining to it.
The current knowledge of Waitaha or Nga Potiki history would have surely been but a memory of those gone before.

Id like to discuss further as Ive barely scratched the surface of this korero.When dealing with history I see its primary function as a key to answer questions of the future.

Kia ora e hoa

The disdain you sensed was from the author of the quotes lol,  I whole hardheartedly agree, the  deeper we can connect to our roots and identify them, the more water one can access....your post there was like a bell for me, a conformation. At the time of this i also meet an other person who's whakapapa, went back to Persia.

On my Dads side Te rarawa up north (Tail of the Fish) we have a similar history, with amalgamated tribes, i think one of them is connected to your area, where kin to the ones that algamated with us?. I did have a few moments of jealousy lol, as you have obviously been brought up within your tribe and customs since early age, and have a firm understanding and foundation in which to work from, where i was not brought up within the culture to such a degree.  I also agree about the treaty, as i see it, it puts us in a unique opportunity, it connects the old world with the new, the new law, with the old lore. By the treaty with the crown that lore is protected, tikanga etc. Looking forward to hearing your insights on this subject

Nga mihi

Ra
 
Title: Re: Maori Tradition
Post by: guest1 on June 20, 2021, 05:32:29 PM
Happy Maori Luna new year lol

Ancient Maori Star Knowledge (I was reminded of the Egyptian boat of the dead, in regards to Matariki (orion constellation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3FQ-jyydF8