Quote from: Diane OstranderAll very confusing isn't it? The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning", or "morning star".
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are they that wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb: that they may have a right to the tree of life and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Without are dogs and sorcerers and unchaste and murderers and servers of idols and every one that loves and makes a lie. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and stock of David, the bright and morning star."
rut ro... ;)
Oh dear...you have opened a big can of worms on that one Diane... ;)
Quote from: Diane OstranderI know, I can do that. I'll behave. Best to leave that as food for thought, or we'll be writing our own book next. Have a wonderful evening.
Quote from: Rex PerkinsWhence came you?
Whence came Diane, you ask?
That is for her to tell, but I recognized her own peculiar sense of brilliance and insight way back from when she first joined the group. I have been waiting for her to come back out of her shell a little more, sharing her half bitten apple with us all so serious and self concerned menâ€¦
When Diane speaks, I listenâ€¦
Quote from: Rex Perkins...actually, I was alluding to the freemasons, a very luciferian order. Diane is a little slice of Heaven.
Even more so since Adam Weishauptâ€¦
However, Masons have a very traceable influence to Jewish Kabbalah and Egyptian Mystery Schools, as do most Western Orders today. This may give a small hint as to the hidden meaning of John the Revelatorâ€™s quote above.
Quote from: Diane OstranderMark 4:11 "but for those outside, everything comes in parables; in order that â€œthey may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand".
Freemasonry and my interest in it has more to do with me looking for specific answers to my questions, rather than my feelings being parallel to theirs. Do we really know what they believe? Better yet, do they know anymore?
Lucifer was not mentioned in the Kolbrin. There were no "evil gods", nor "fallen angels", mentioned in the Kolbrin from what I can find. Of course I could be wrong. But "their God, was mentioned many times. They used both upper case G and lower case g. As was "our God". Does this mean that there were more than one? Does it mean that one was false and one was true? Same one God that each interpreted the best way they could understand? Were there lower gods and one true Creator of All?
Kolbrin GLN:15:15 "The path of godliness is not an easy one to follow, for it is beset with the pitfalls of perplexity and doubt. Then, too, there is not one path, but several, and few among men know which is the best. There are many false paths leading nowhere, there are paths that lead to a wilderness of disillusion and some, which lead to destruction.
Yet among the many beliefs springing up from time to time in various lands, there are always those, which lead to the same Truth. to the one Fountainhead of Light, though some may be devious and some wander through dangerous territory. They are like many roads leading pilgrims to the one shrine. Though all true paths are lit by the guiding light of Truth. not all see it alike; but the fault lies not so much in the light as in the beholder. It is this, which leads to misunderstandings concerning each other's teachings and to disputes between those who prefer one road and those preferring another. Each considers his own way, his own interpretation of the light to be the best, if not the only, way."
Masonry is a hollow shell of what it once was. There have been a few truly wise and insightful Masons in the past couple centuries, but beyond them you are looking at a dead spirituality. It can be instructive to study the history of Masonry, and read the writings of some of the great Masons or gain access to their impressive collection of rare texts. Beyond these things, I feel there is little to be gained working among Masons, unless you are looking for a fun social club or aligning yourself with philanthropic endeavors. And as it is a menâ€™s only club, there is even less use for a woman to directly approach them for answers.
I cannot tell you ultimately what Path is True, because all paths contain different lessons and various gradients of Truth. Depending on where you are internally, it will make most sense for you to follow the Path that relates to the Lessons you need to learn most in this life, and what most corresponds to your personality, cultural background, mentality, maturity, intellect, and spiritual development level. Iâ€™ve often found more enlightenment in a child or a simple old grandmother saying her Hail Maryâ€™s and Our Fatherâ€™s than in some practicing arcane, advanced metaphysics. There are some Southern Baptists more in tune with God, Truth, and Love than others whom have meditated 20 years and traveled the world in search for Truth. One Path is not necessarily better than another, but one may be better for you, and another Path better for your neighbor. Even Atheism or Satanism may be important stages to traverse for a particular Soulâ€™s Journey. No one group or philosophy contains Ultimate Truth. The best you can do on this Earth is align yourself with that which corresponds to your own internal needs. Understanding the above, you may find what seems to be contradictions in Teachings and Opposition Paths, but Reality is both more complex and more simple than we generally perceive, and what often on the surface appears to be a contradiction is actually in perfect harmony when fully grasped.
â€œTheir godâ€ is truly real for others who follow that god because â€œtheyâ€ both manifest that other godâ€™s attributes and literally attract an actual celestial Power. It is not â€œour godâ€ because we do not resonate with that Power, yet that â€œother godâ€ is not less real just because we donâ€™t interact with it. â€œLuciferâ€ is both the light bearer and the force that can blind, causing deception and confusion in one while serving an enlightening purification for others. One is Fallen while another Rises, each reacting differently to the same Power. One serves Evil by denying Evil exists, while another serves only Good by not Knowing Evil.
To answer these questions for yourself, and to Know the Truth, you must â€œKnow Thyselfâ€. Where are you? Who are you? What do you truly desire/want/need? What resonates most with your heart, mind, and soul? What are your deepest and most essential goals in this life, and are you doing what is necessary to not get distracted and actively pursue these goals? Have you connected with your Heart, and if so, are you actively manifesting the True You in your external day to day life? I could go on, but if you can answer these questions honestly about yourself, most of the rest of your questions will be answered of themselves.
Best not to get too far into the weeds at once, so I shall leave you at present with these thoughts to ponderâ€¦
Quote from: Rex Perkins"There are some Southern Baptists more in tune with God, Truth, and Love than others whom have meditated 20 years and traveled the world in search for Truth."
Having been raised Southern Baptist in the heart of the Bible belt, I must say that religious fervor is not the same thing and spiritual maturity.
Having said that, I do know many spiritual giants in Bible country.
"what often on the surface appears to be a contradiction is actually in perfect harmony when fully grasped."
the Duality of Irony... like I've said before, GOD is a comedian.
"â€œtheyâ€ both manifest that other godâ€™s attributes and literally attract an actual celestial Power."
Santa is real!!!
Yes, the Spirit of Santa is actually real. ;)
Isn't it fascinating to witness the offense taken by some when their big G God is mocked, yet when little g god is mentioned, it becomes a delusion or a joke for the previously offended follower of the big G God?
The history of religious and spiritual intolerance and ignorance plays itself out in an infinite variety of forms.
Better to say "I don't know" and be honest and intellectually consistent. We all have our Lessons to learn.
Just a note: the above comment is not directed to you Rex, or any other particular person on this board, but is a general observation of intolerance that that we can find traces of everywhere.
Quote from: Rex PerkinsDidn't take it as such, Leonard, as I didn't show intolerance.
...except maybe for zealots.
â€œTheir godâ€ is truly real for others who follow that god because â€œtheyâ€ both manifest that other godâ€™s attributes and literally attract an actual celestial Power. It is not â€œour godâ€ because we do not resonate with that Power, yet that â€œother godâ€ is not less real just because we donâ€™t interact with it. â€œLuciferâ€ is both the light bearer and the force that can blind, causing deception and confusion in one while serving an enlightening purification for others. One is Fallen while another Rises, each reacting differently to the same Power. One serves Evil by denying Evil exists, while another serves only Good by not Knowing Evil."
"But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.
Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him.
Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?" - CS Lewis "The Last Battle"
"Those who speak of a fallen archangel, as also those who speak of the embodiment of the evil principle, come closest to the truth. But here also a false attitude prevails, giving a false picture of everything. An embodiment of the evil principle makes one think of the summit, of the final goal, of all evil having been invested with life and body, thus the crowning, the complete culmination!
On the contrary, however, Lucifer is the origin, the starting point and the driving power of the wrong principle! One should really not call the principle he brings forth the evil principle, but the wrong principle! The field of action of this wrong principle is the World of Matter.
It is only here that the effects of the Light and the effects of Darkness, the two opposing principles, meet with one another, and constantly influence the human soul while it is developing on its journey through the World of Matter. Whichever of the two the human soul favours, in accordance with its own wishes, proves decisive for its ascent toward the Light or for its descent toward Darkness." - Abd-ru-shin
Quote from: Manuel CufreDon't some Satanists believe Lucifer to have been the Sumerian Enki too? These seem to me like a bunch of mixed up and misinterpreted ancient myths, same with the Bible.
Quote from: Rex Perkins"In the days of our fathers, before barren teachings clogged the thoughts of men, and vain, formal ritual built a wall which obscured understanding, men walked in the light of Truth. Then they knew there was One God alone, but because they allowed their higher abilities to fall to disuse, they saw less clearly. Because He appeared in different aspects, they thought He was many." - GLEANINGS 3:3
Quote from: Manuel Cufre"We have a god you and I, and you have a god and I have a god. The people have their gods and the strangers within your gates have their gods; but bidden behind all these is another God. These lesser gods are no more than His members. It is this God whom I seek. How can I, a mere mortal, describe Him? Only this do I know, as I learned it in a remote temple. This God came into existence before all else. He ever was, so none could know Him in the beginning and none knows His mysterious nature. No god came into existence before Him. How can I even name One who had no mother after whom His name might have been made? He had no father who could have named Him and said, "This is I, your father". None can display His likeness in writing, nor can it be cut with knife in wood or stone. He is too great that men should even enquire about Him. With what words could He be described to their understanding? No other god knows how to call Him by name, even the greatest of them being less than a servant before Him. Yet this I have been told, that the spirit of man can know this Great God and can even know His nature, therefore perchance the spirit of man is greater than any of the gods".
For you Rex ;)
Manuel, that last quote really nails home much of what we've been dancing around!
Source please, for all the other boys and girls following at home...
Quote from: Diane OstranderJust read last night that the story of Lucifer is the story of us...oh my, I feel like it's opposite day every time I dive into this.
For anyone interested. Kind of sums it up in 3 pages....the Sumerian Anu, Enki, Enlil...Yahwah Satin Lucifer god, son of God parable.
There are nuggets of Truth in this article, laced with poison and twists of deception. Tread carefully here, using your heart and discernment as guides...
Quote from: Rex Perkinsyep, poor understanding of myths and intent
Quote from: Diane Ostrander"it is by gathering information and making unprejudiced observations while at the same time stretching the mind into the field of consciousness, that we develop the vehicle for the Soul, which can then â€œknowâ€ things by virtue of the gift of God."
I like nuggets of truth. I'm not saying that these are "my conclusions". I have no real ones, and they change back and forth with more information.
If you read the above link about Enki...you would see in the story that he took a being already of the earth to make the human race. First it was just a slave-race, and then he altered his creation one more time to have knowledge, self awareness...etc.
"The body of man, God made of water and things of the Earth, breathing into him the Spirit of Life, that he might live. But man, when young, lived only to eat and drink and to fornicate, for, being conscious only of the Earth, he knew only earthly things and earthly ways.
CRT:2:4 When Heavenman was reborn of the she-ape in the cavern of Woe, could he taste the fruits of the Earth and drink of her waters, and feel the coolness of her winds? Did he not find life good? It is not all a tale of the courtyard!
CRT:2:5 Man, created from earthly substance alone, could not know things not of Earth, nor could Spirit alone subdue him. Had man not been created, who would have known God's wisdom and power? As the Spirit fills the body of man, so does God fill His creation.
CRT:2:6 Therefore, it was that both. In His wisdom and by the creative impulse which governs the Earth, He prepared a body for man, for the body of man is wholly of Earth.
It says Heavenman.
Man, (of some sort), was here already as a creation of God. Then Heavenman stepped in,(he could see God), and we mix and end up a more aware being of itself but who can't see God. Who was Heavenman and why was he here? Things point to more of a female energy like Sofia, or Maeva. And the why here?...forced to be here for reaching too far. What did he do? He was tempted by the flesh of the monkeywoman, or monkeyman.
Now lets enter into insane orbit! woo hoo!
So we have one race already here. I like to call them monkeyman just for fun. And we have a new race from Heavenman-(whoever he, she was), and we'll call them the Adams. 2 Races.
Did you know that...Pliny the Younger, who lived c. 62 to 113 AD wrote that early Christians were convicted because of their â€œhatred of humanityâ€.
The fall was when Heavenman interacted with she-ape, or heavenwoman interacted with ape-man. This created the son of man. The spiritual and the material being. This fall resulted in a number of effects: the breaking up of the DNA, the burning off of the first ten factors of DNA, the separation of the hemispheres of the brain.
You can call me crazy, no matter. I might change my mind tomorrow. But I have to keep seeking. Jesus fits into this too...but from what I see right now...he wasn't on the side of monkeyman, (who looked just like the fallen angels by then), but on the side of the Adams.
Quote from: Rex PerkinsFirst Account (Genesis 1:1-2:3)
Genesis 1:25-27 (Humans were created after the other animals.)
"And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image."
Genesis 1:27 (The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)
Genesis 2:18-19 (Humans were created before the other animals.)
"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."
Genesis 2:18-22 (The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)
"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."
Jesus says in Mark 10:6, "From the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
I personally, think the first one is the story of the creation of mankind where the second is a story of the creation of two individuals.
Whatever might have happened in the past, we are all genetically mixed now, and have been since long before the time of Jesus. Today, as in Jesusâ€™ time, there are only spiritual monkey men and spiritual Adams, which are not defined by genetics or lineage.
I, personally, am not for one â€˜sideâ€™ or another, but do see my own path aligned with the spiritual Adams.
One more observation: there were many early Christian groups that disagreed with one another on a variety of issues. Tacitus' statement about Christian's "hatred of humanity" was referencing certain Gnostic sects, and certain rabid Paulines. Of course, this was out of line with Jesus' repeated teaching of love for humanity.
Then again, there was divergence from and a watering down of the original Teachings in nearly every early Christian sect from the very beginning, owing to the natural weakness and corruption inherent in man, which only can be overcome through continual striving and by great effort.
Quote from: Diane OstranderThank you for not calling me crazy. ;) I agree God created man and woman first on earth, but they are who I call monkeyman. Maybe I should call them pre-adams, sounds nicer and they say the women were beautiful. As they were in his "image". But I feel that when the two humanities were created, they were placed under different authorities.
Leonard, I hope I'm more aligned with the Adams, I think I know I am. But I question everything. I don't think it's our choice of sides. More like there are options open to the Adams that the pre-Adams don't have. If you are an Adam your choice is to use what you have or not. â€œDo not cast your pearls before swine lest they turn and rend you in piecesâ€. No the pre-Adams won't eat us up. Just don't deny divine nature to an inadmissible degree, then the balance will be broken in favor of the pre-adams. And we're not quite certain who their authority is...but we can guess. Pre-Adams will get there all on their own. We're just to suppose to get to the ladder first.
Just my thoughts, not saying I have answers. Swish it around and keep what works for you, and if it doesn't then discard it.
You're not crazy at all Diane, except maybe crazy like a fox, as you are touching on issues that actually can get people ripped apart...
(Reread chapters 5 and 6 of the Book of Creation for the Kolbrin's perspective on this issue)
The main problem is that the children of Adam are still in two camps, and the war is still being fought on Earth and in Heaven. Try to understand the hidden implications and symbolism in the stories of Cain, Abel, and Seth and how that story is paralleled later in the story of Jacob and Esau.
The Jacobites are still in control, and it is their prerogative to accentuate misconceptions and ignorance in man in order to control, enslave, and leech. Some people intuiting a sense of these things become fiercely anti-semetic, not realizing that the House of Adam and the House of Israel is still divided, with the less numerous branch still fighting for mankind's freedom and enlightenment.
I've said enough for the time being...
Quote from: Katsi DuzynskiIn the interview with Hidden Hand on Wes Penre's radio show, HH makes the comment that the Abrahamic God is the'lesser' God of the Universe, or rather NOT the god of the entire cosmos. He is strictly in charge of what was going on here on EARTH - & he screwed up big time, and has a temper tantrum (when Adam & Eve make the discovery of the Tree of Good and Evil) AS IT IS described in the 'bible' - OR in OTHER WORDS - being that much of the language used in the assorted chapters in the bible, is METAPHOR ... not to be taken literally ... the tree means that one has the mere ability to choose right over wrong, the selection of FREE WILL, is what it is all about! The entire interview transcript is VERY revealing and thought provoking. Look for it and download it, as it contains MUCH interesting and positive material relating to humanity and other issues. The description of what a Luciferian believes in, is thought provoking, to say the least ...
Hidden Hand - For those who want to know: Reliable ...
Hidden Hand Interview: Powerfully transformative and inspiring interview with 'Hidden Hand,' the pseudonym for an alleged priest of the secret ruling bloodlines of ...
How about a little myth busting. 8)
Quote"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
"The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell? The answer was a surprise.
In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."
"Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, "bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King")."
Correct, Diane... Lucifer may not have been used in the OT, but Satan was.
A little more myth busting if I may. The concept of Hell was not in the OT either. This was falsely inserted by some of the early Christian fathers. Hell and Hades was replaced from the Hebrew word Sheol, which was the place of the dead where both the righteous and the wicked ended up after Earthly life. It is a dark, silent place that reminds one more of silent nothingness or a grayness where souls sleep in a semi unconsciousness.
A place like this does exist, but it is not reserved for all. Hell and Heaven also exist, but it is not the Lake of Fire or Angels singing on harps eternally. Rather these are colorful metaphors to describe a state of soul that isn't easy to describe in material terms.
Letâ€™s not be mixing up our Satanâ€™s with our Luciferâ€™s. Hard enough to untangle the mess without mashing it all back together again. ;D But for the moment letâ€™s see what Satan has been up to.
Satanâ€™s can and most often do appear as angels of light. Tricky little devils arenâ€™t they? Some say they are fallen angels who have become the minions of Satan. Here is where they mix the fallen angels with the evils of the Satanâ€™s, or we could call them the dark ones, the controlling ones, the ones who are more reptilian in nature. Wise, cunning, deadly. The negative polarity that has to exist for balance. We may not like it, but Satan will always be there.
We know that many ancient teachings tell us the essence of evil existed from the beginning. This means there has always been a pathway of darkness since the instant of creation. So fallen angelâ€™s, (Luciferâ€™s), did not create evil, nor did they create Satanâ€™s. Lucifer is not Satan. 2 different energies. In my humble opinion, which is subject to change given any new information. ;)
Its been a while, but I'm sure I remember reading, somewhere in the Torah, about how Israels G-d, had "brought to naught", the G-ds of Egypt.
For "G-d" to do that, surely, the god of Egypt must have existed ?
Unless its all just a story.....................
But I don't think so.
Also, the reference that Jesus makes to himself being the "morning star", is why some Jews say that Christians worship the Devil...........
Actualy, way back in the prophets, there is a warning somewhere, about a man named Ori BenBoker (Lucifer Son(of the) Morning. Its actualy about a man with that name, Ori BenBoker. Ori is a common Hebrew masculine name, and BenBoker , well, that wouldn't be hard to find.
Ori, is actually a lovely positive name, and Ive met people with that name in real life.
Ori, I think, means "Light Bearer".
I was just reading these posts, and remembered that years ago, I was having a conversation with Rabbi Avraham Feld and my friend Yair Davidy, about the Christians and lost Israelites. Rabbi Feld pointed out that the scripture in the book of Revelations, saying that Jesus was the bright morning star, was a reference to HaSatan, and that the Christians worshipped HaSatan, without realising it.
Quote from: Enkisfreind on June 24, 2013, 05:56:10 AM
I was just reading these posts, and remembered that years ago, I was having a conversation with Rabbi Avraham Feld and my friend Yair Davidy, about the Christians and lost Israelites. Rabbi Feld pointed out that the scripture in the book of Revelations, saying that Jesus was the bright morning star, was a reference to HaSatan, and that the Christians worshipped HaSatan, without realising it.
In my eyes that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. When actually both are the same color. We could make them white pots, and it wouldnâ€™t matter.
hasatan â€œthe accuser,â€ or â€œthe adversary.â€. In the stories weâ€™ve read, was Jesus an adversary of the Jewish Priests ?, yes. Did he accuse them of things ?, yes.
In my opinion both the Jewish Priests, and Jesus in the stories were Serpent Kings, Serpent Priests. All from the same root so to speak. Not meaning evil devil snake, but one who has knowledge, wisdom, holds the secret mysteries, expertise in astronomy, astrology, architecture, medicine, music, poetry and metaphysical philosophy.
I think there was a split, a divide between those who held the ancient teachings.
Of course you are right Diane,
I know what you mean, those who split, probably had no idea that the adversary they were faceing, was of the same spiritual cast, so to speak.
Probably the influence of the imbalanced male/female spirituality turning shared wisdom into a contest between wizards .
I honestly don't know. Please don't say Of course I'm right....I'm searching just like you. You're always so very sweet, and I love you as a person all the more for it.
Say there was a natural disaster, maybe more than one. As in real life, we know that a whole group of very wise people probably will not agree on everything. We can see that with our own peoples.
So say there was a group of very advanced people. They fled, separated after a natural disaster of some kind. I believe they were located in the northern west. Not certain of course, that's research and putting clues together. Some fled to Egypt, and other areas south east. They all basically believed the same things, with exceptions. I think the exceptions become evident in the different religions and paths people took. Maybe a group of these wise men thought women shamans were the cause of their troubles, and saw the answers in a more male dominated society. The male thing isn't all...there's all the threats from all the religions like, "you'll go straight to hell" , if you don't believe my way. You'll get a bunch of virgins if you follow this path. You know, I'm sure you see it too. These folks were way above that, and they used our own fears to win the common people to their sides.
So the Jewish priests had a wonderful knowledge, yet so did the people who belonged to the "other side"-call it the Jesus side if that fits. Neither is totally wrong, or totally evil. They're both from the same mold. They battled with their wits and beliefs, call each other names, made up bad stories about the other side, but they were really from the same mold to begin with. Not sure if you can follow that train of thought. I try very hard to get to the original knowledge without all the back and forth over who is right and who is wrong, who is on the side of evil and who is not.
If it feels wrong to you on the inside, then it probably is. The battle is always within us. The wizards can battle all they want. Go with your heart.
I'm with you Diane, I'm thinking that it was maybe as you have said, at least something like that. The puzzle certainly does seem to fit together along those lines.
Cant wait to meet you one day, when we all get together.
Love and light to you sister.
May the Supreme Spirit, the Creator of all, be your constant guide and friend.
Quote from: Diane_ on June 25, 2013, 07:48:10 PMSo the Jewish priests had a wonderful knowledge, yet so did the people who belonged to the "other side"-call it the Jesus side if that fits. Neither is totally wrong, or totally evil. They're both from the same mold. They battled with their wits and beliefs, call each other names, made up bad stories about the other side, but they were really from the same mold to begin with. Not sure if you can follow that train of thought. I try very hard to get to the original knowledge without all the back and forth over who is right and who is wrong, who is on the side of evil and who is not.
Sha'ul and I discussed some of this privately, specifically one of the most notable theological splits in Jewish history. This split was between the two most influential Jewish leaders of the time, Hillel and Shammai. An abbreviated history of these leaders and their conflict can be read about through the links below:
What is particularly interesting to me, was that this internal Jewish conflict was at its zenith during the life and times of Jesus. Hillel died when Jesus was a boy, and Shammai and his theological descendants were in control of the Sanhedrin and Jewish priesthood throughout the rest of Jesus' life. We read in the various Gospels on how Jesus disputed and condemned much of the priesthood of his day, and eventually how the Sanhedrin plotted to arrest and kill him. What is notable here is that many of the theological Teachings of Hillel closely match the Teachings of Jesus. We also read in Jewish history how when the House of Shammai was in power, they plotted with the Zealots to betray and murder many prominent rabbis of the House of Hillel. It wasn't until after the destruction of Solomon's Temple during the Jewish rebellion against the Romans, that Jewish Law and Theology again favored the House of Hillel, and has sided with Hillel to this day. It seems unfortunate that the majority of Jews reject one of their greatest prophets (Messiah?), based on a theological rejection (Shammai's) of Him which the Jews since have long since rejected themselves in favor of the Teachings of Hillel. In other words, the Teachings of Jesus closely resemble the Teachings of Hillel, which the Jews now accept. Yet Jesus is rejected as a Jewish prophet because he happened to live during the short-lived theological reign of Shammai, even though he taught as Hillel, which is now accepted Law. Yet such is the folly of men that they remain loyal to and defend the mistakes and inconsistencies of their Fathers...
Interesting too that the above connection with Jesus to the dispute of Hillel and Shammai is conveniently (almost) never mentioned by Jewish or Christian historians and theologians... Proper historical context would clearly more closely link Jews and Christians, as they are truly brothers, but it is evident that certain Powers that Be
can't have that.
Quote from: Diane_ on June 25, 2013, 07:48:10 PMThe wizards can battle all they want.
Celestial Powers battle, which influences and sets the tone of the battle of wizards, which influences and sets the tone of the internal and external battles of the common man. Sides are drawn and choices are made. Think you can straddle the fence or not choose a side? Think again, you will be drafted as an unconscious pawn. So, choose well, or others will choose for you...
Quote from: Enkisfreind on June 24, 2013, 05:56:10 AMI was just reading these posts, and remembered that years ago, I was having a conversation with Rabbi Avraham Feld and my friend Yair Davidy, about the Christians and lost Israelites. Rabbi Feld pointed out that the scripture in the book of Revelations, saying that Jesus was the bright morning star, was a reference to HaSatan, and that the Christians worshipped HaSatan, without realising it.
I think Rabbi Feld is correct without realizing how he is correct. Lucifer, when idolized or worshiped, becomes your personal accuser and Satan. He becomes an adversary you struggle against in daily life seeking for his favor and gifts. This is as true when Christians idolize, externalize, and worship Christ, or when Jews idolize, externalize, and worship Yahweh. The bright morning star will be the light to guide you home to the Heavens; but when it becomes your idol (Satan), you will make it/Him your accuser as you suffer on your knees. How will you react to the bright morning star, fall on your knees or be guided to join the hosts of Heaven? Lucifer becomes Satan in your own Soul based on your reaction internally, and the Light of the Supreme Spirit shines within and without based on this decision and personal awareness.
(Just don't make the mistake of Lucifer, thinking YOU ARE the Supreme Spirit as your own light grows, for this is how one 'falls' through their pride.)
Wow Len, what a post !
Its true, Jews often say, "We Jews, have no worse enemy, than the Jews", only what you said needs some clarification on my part, if you will ?
Jews today, Rabbi's included, don't even think about Jesus, its not in anypart of Jewish teaching, he is viewed a"the goy god", Jesus for goyim, HaShem for Jews. This is of course sad, and a misguided concept of what , and who, Jesus is to Christians, though some do still think Jesus is a god, or G-d.
When I was a yeshiva bocher ( Torah student", at Bat Ayin in Judea, I had with me my olf faithful King James Bible. I once showed it to Rabbi Hannan, my teacher, and some friends of mine. They were very curous to touch it, and on request of a dear friend and fellow Talmud of mine, I was allowed to read some of Jesus's words in Mathew to them, just as an educational enterprise. I read some of the sermon on the MT, actualy Rav Hannan had heard of it, and thought it might not be too radical. Well, they were all amazed at how "Jewish" it sounded, and Rav Hannan banged the table "AHA" !"That's a quote from Rav Hallel", he shouted, and had me read to the end. It was then he explained to us, he being an Orthodox Hassidic settler style Rabbi, in a Yeshiva in Judea, how it was that Y'shua (Jesus), had been a student of Hallel !
That's where I first heard about that. I didn't read them anymore, but I had plenty of questions asked of me after that by my friends, as I never hid the fact that I had been a Christian years before.
Really spiritual seeker type Jews, don't hate Jesus, they don't know him, and they don't understand, or know, their history. If they did, they may well see him as a great Jewish teacher.
The main issue with Jesus, for me also, is the human sacrifice for sin aspect, that, to Judaism, is totally pagan, and an unacceptable Christian doctrine.
The last part of your post makes a lot of sense too, about creating your own adversary.
Quote from: Enkisfreind on June 28, 2013, 06:01:47 AM
Wow Len, what a post !
Yes, I agree, most interesting, and you're reply as well.
Quote from: Enkisfreind on June 28, 2013, 06:01:47 AMIt was then he explained to us, he being an Orthodox Hassidic settler style Rabbi, in a Yeshiva in Judea, how it was that Y'shua (Jesus), had been a student of Hallel !
Quote from: Enkisfreind on June 28, 2013, 06:01:47 AMThe main issue with Jesus, for me also, is the human sacrifice for sin aspect, that, to Judaism, is totally pagan, and an unacceptable Christian doctrine.
Many religions can be considered pagan. Usually any religion other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. They say the word Pagan is from the Latin word paganus which meant countryman. Paganism can be a term for a person who follows a Nature-based religion. I tend to agree with a more nature based theology.
My Grandmother on my mothers side was a Dennehy. I have cousins who are Finns. They arrived in the USA from Ireland and Northern Scotland in the early 1900's. I enjoy researching the Druids, celts, and their History. Druidism is considered to be pagan, and Jesus under a different name was part of it.
I think the whole human sacrifice for sin in regards to Jesus has been a bit twisted, and the pagans in this case should not be blamed for this error. Don't get my feelings wrong here. I could read the words attributed to Jesus all day long, and have great respect for the teacher. I feel too that if Paganism was removed from any of the top three religions, we would have nothing left but science. A recent book that I purchased describes the relationship of Jesus and the Druids fairly well, I'll let the author tell the story. But always keep in mind that even the best authors can throw their own prejudice into their version.
Best to read things and then research them on your own.
QuoteDuring their rites, the Druids located a tree in the shape of a cross, or lopped off the branches of a specifically chosen oak to make a cruciform. Upon this tree the name Hesus was usually inscribed. The party of Druids present at the ceremony of Iesa would face Eastward toward the rising of the sun and sing hymns and chant to the newborn Son of the Sun. The very word east derives from his name. It was only later that certain groups assimilated the custom and made a travesty of it that a physical man appeared to hang in pain from a tree...
The T-shaped tree represented the Tinne and Tau letter of the sacred alphabets, and connoted death and rebirth. The letter â€œTâ€ served the same meaning as Greek Omega. Christ, who is associated with this letter, is based on Iesa who was in previous ages associated with the Tau, the hierogram of which was the tree or cross. Jesus is still referred to as Essa in the Koran and was known by that name to both the Arabs and the Copts (Egyptian Christians). In Northern India Iesa is remembered as Issa or Essa. From this word we derive â€œessence,â€ â€œEsseneâ€ and â€œesoteric.â€ Other versions of the name are Yesu, Hesu, Esus and Aesar meaning â€œHe who creates (or brings) the fire.â€ The Celtic Heus or Esus was a mysterious god of Gaul.
QuoteEsa or Iesa was the third deity of the Druidic Trinity of Bel, Taranis and Esa. His name meant â€œThe Raised One.â€ His element was wind. This was picked up by Gnostics and Christians and transformed into the â€œRuach,â€ â€œPneuma,â€ and finally the â€œHoly Spirit.â€ Esa was commonly shown hovering in the sky or cutting from a tree in the guise of a carpenter. Suggestively, he was often depicted hanging from a great tree while being stabbed to death. According to Druidic tradition Esusâ€™ life-blood healed the earth. It purified and revivified the land allowing for a new seasonâ€™s abundance. The Druids understood the land to be literally born again from the blood of the sacrificed Esus. Michael Tsarion The Irish Origins of Civilization
Below is a sketch of Esus. They would put a board on the tree with the name Esus. I believe it was the tree that was sacrificed in the name of Esus, and the life blood of the tree purified the land. In this case, there were no people being hung from a tree and being sacrificed. It was symbolic of a God giving the blood of life to the land.
Ok Diane, for once I must disagree with you, unless I read you wrong.
The Hebrews never "picked up " Ruach from any Druid type theology, or anybody else for that matter. I realise you have posted anothers writtings, but still I must make the point.
Ru'ach, in Hebrew means a wind, spirit,breath or unseen power, and is an ancient Hebrew word, before Druids were even thought of. It is said, for instance that Elohim blew His Ru'ach, into Adams nostrals, and he became a living soul.
Essene, in Hebrew, "acyia" Healers, as they healed with herbs and incantations. This name also, has nothing to do with anything outside the Jewish religious world in the 1st 2nd century.
I don't know where some of these people get there info from.
I'm not growling or anything, just thought you might like to be enlightened.
Love and light to you dear sister.
Don't be discouraged !!!