Culdian Forums

Specialized Areas of Interest => Politics and Economics => Topic started by: Len on May 01, 2014, 09:05:06 PM

Title: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:05:06 PM
(Note -- This discussion was initiated after replying to a list of American Founding Fathers' Quotes found here: http://culdiantrust.org/culdianforums/index.php?topic=220.0 (http://culdiantrust.org/culdianforums/index.php?topic=220.0) )

Quote from: guest1
It's hard to set aside politics and become brothers and sisters when politics are so diametrically opposed nowadays. I really see no hope for consensus with the dramatic conflict of beliefs that we see today. Best in any case would be for people to try to relocate among others who share their views to the largest extent.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:07:31 PM
I was discussing more in terms of online relationships on the forums, which can extend to face to face relationships among those of us whose prime interests relate to self-mastery, spirituality, truth, etc. Among these folks, political differences need not divide at all. On the contrary, I personally have spent extended periods of time with communists and anarchists (of which I am neither) in close quarters (in the woods and jungle) without political differences impinging upon our relationships in the slightest.

Perhaps it was the devotion to Truth above all else, which allowed for civility and comradery even following heated political debates. Perhaps it was that politics played a second to spirituality, and that the similar working towards personal advancement tied a stronger kinship than how a far off government (or lack of one) should be formed. In either case, political differences have rarely gotten in the way of my connections or friendships with those of similar spiritual goals.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:07:51 PM
Quote from: guest1
I have been able to remain friends of people of very different ideologies yet we certainly don't strive for the same kind of world. It's mostly due to civility I think that these kinds of relationships can subsist such ideological antagonism.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:08:05 PM
There you go… civility is an essential to living together, regardless of ideology. Uncivil people of the same ideology have a hard time living together…
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:08:23 PM
Quote from: guest1
Yeah but civility has a limit, when people start pushing their own views too hard onto the rest then at some point people will snap, as civil as they may be.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:08:39 PM
Some people snap… others walk away… others smile, quietly understanding… others attempt to heal in ways conventional and unconventional. In the end I guess it would depend on one’s own level of civility, awareness, and personal proclivities.

What an interesting stew…  ;)
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:09:00 PM
Quote from: guest1
Well the American founding fathers were clearly not tolerating of certain ideologies and they spent all their effort fighting against them. I think there are certain things from which we can't walk away from because ultimately they threaten to destroy the fabric of all that holds our lives together.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:09:13 PM
Agreed, but they were able to live and debate amongst those who were of different ideologies (American loyalists to the British Crown), civilly and peacefully, before and after the revolution…

When there is a gun in your face, or blood in the street, well, that’s a different story.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:09:34 PM
Quote from: guest1
Yeah well you can always debate civilly until a certain point, unfortunately when there's a clash of interests this is not of so much benefit ultimately.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:09:56 PM
Sometimes conflict is inevitable… and can even provide a cleansing function. My point was that that is rarely, if ever, necessary between Seekers on the Soulpath.

In any case, there should virtually be no risk of guns or blood where we stand in this group or in the forums.  ;)
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:10:17 PM
Quote from: guest1
I've lost many friendships with people who claimed they were spiritual due to politics. I guess they weren't so spiritual as they claimed after all.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:10:29 PM
Perhaps they, perhaps you… perhaps other dynamics in the situation not easily seen. But I suspect this is more a case of personality conflict and weak relationship skills rather than issues of ideology.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:10:50 PM
Quote from: guest1
Well you know me Len, you can have a nasty argument with me and I'll be cool about it a while after. But these people just wouldn't tolerate different views.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:11:24 PM
I make no judgment in terms of who to blame, as I am unfamiliar with the details. But assuming another will not tolerate you because you hold different political beliefs, this is not open-mindedness, civility, or anything resembling one who seeks Truth wherever it leads.

Such a one cannot be on the Soulpath, whatever pretenses or parroting they make for spirituality. In this case, the dissolution of the relationship is better and healthier in the long run for you, Manuel.

Separating the wheat from the chaff, as it were…
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:12:44 PM
the dissolution of the relationship is better and healthier in the long run for you, Manuel.

Quote from: guest1
Yes, I think this also applies to societies at the macro scale
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:13:09 PM
One need not be friends to be associates, acquaintances, or neighbors…
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:13:30 PM
Quote from: guest1
It's not only about being friends, it's about coexistance. Some people just don't tolerate certain ways of perceiving life in this world. Trying to make people of diametrically opposite views coexist can only lead to strife.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:13:43 PM
These are extreme cases, Manuel. There are many people who claim strong political ideologies, but only the tiniest fraction of these would die for it. When push comes to shove, most people back down and adjust or redefine political views when a violent reality is on the horizon.

But sure, when things get this extreme, you either relocate, or pick up arms…

Again though, I’ve never seen such a thing happening among Seekers.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:14:01 PM
Quote from: guest1
Maybe among true seekers I guess.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:14:28 PM
This is whom I mean… and this is whom I am speaking to in that post, as these are the sorts of people we’d like to attract to the forum… and yes, there are not many…  :(

Political divisions, among True Seekers, have been the least cause of division in my experience, even when those differences are extreme.

In any case, conflict is still sometimes necessary in the world at large. Blood will eventually spill, when people choose to force their will on others to the point of arms or confinement, this is an inevitability as long as people forcefully dominate others.

Yet, there is one quote form Jefferson I hesitated to share:

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” – Thomas Jefferson
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:15:08 PM
Quote from: guest1
You know I'd agree with that one  ;)

Problem is how to define tyrants, because if a tyrant is of compatible ideology with certain groups, they may instead consider him/her a great leader and do their bidding.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:15:28 PM
Anyone is free to follow whomever they choose…

If that leader, or their followers in his name attempts to compel another by force of arms or confinement to follow likewise, through conscription of labor, wages, or belief into following that ideology; this is tyranny, to a greater or lesser extent.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:15:50 PM
Quote from: guest1
I'd agree but some people would say that those things should be embraced if they are in favor of the "common good".
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:16:06 PM
Let those who believe this then give their labor, wages, and belief to the “common good” to congregate together. And let those who believe otherwise separate, or defend themselves, if they are not given leave to separate…

Of course there are many degrees to the above, and each must choose what is most appropriate for themselves.

Others don’t care one way or another, as long as they eat, have shelter, and their families are in peace.

Big world, lot of people with a lot of choices and preferences.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:18:06 PM
Quote from: guest1
Couldn't agree more. Specially with that first paragraph.

And the last line as well  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1XxMuFfdRo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1XxMuFfdRo)

This one is interesting. I think there are people ready to live without governments or states of any sort, yet unfortunately as they are a minority they would end up needing some sort of way to separate themselves from the rest before the collectivists and statists again turn to the whole thing upside down. There seems to be a conundrum here which I don't know how it could be solved.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:18:21 PM
Depending on the men you are dealing with, no government can be just as evil as total government, perhaps more so…
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:18:49 PM
Quote from: guest1
Yes....

It's a hard balance to attain.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:19:04 PM
Personal virtue among men is the balance to attain, which is why political science is of a secondary importance.

A society of virtuous men will thrive and advance under either scenario…  ;)
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:19:27 PM
Quote from: guest1
It's precisely shaping such society of virtuous men which is the great challenge.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:19:39 PM
Sure is, but political forms, or lack of them, is not what does the trick regardless.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:20:01 PM
Quote from: guest1
Yes, but political ideology may pervert the society in such way that righteous men will not come to be.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 01, 2014, 09:20:15 PM
People have to want virtue… to want Truth… to want self-mastery and awareness… and they can’t be made to want them. Except perhaps, by experience. And often it is the worst situations which bring out that which is best in men.

How can one know there is light without darkness?
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on April 03, 2015, 05:07:37 AM
Quote
How can one know there is light without darkness?

Very true Len.
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on July 17, 2015, 07:48:39 PM
The United States government was set up in a fashion to create checks and balances in each branch. To harness this system, the branches introduced ideology. In the United States there is mainly conservative and liberal ideology. With a few others introduced from time to time to test the waters. The ideologies represent a democracy based on the “authoritative allocation of values.” These values are represented by our elected officials because their influence is our influence and together there can be an exchange of what the people want.

There are different classes of people in the United States who want to stay wealthy, increase their income and have more opportunity, or stay at a class level they belong to. Basically, I am referring to the rich and the poor. This is what makes up our political ideologies today, the class struggle. And there are a few implications. Liberals prefer change in government because things such as national debt, wages, poverty, and jobs are all out of balance. Conservatives prefer order in government to support their wealth with less taxes and the like. Another difference between the two ideologies is that liberals generally do not like war whereas conservatives see it as capitalist growth and an economic stimulator. The class struggle is also based on what controls the behavior of man. Two things are thought of. Genetics and environment. What constitutes these is the primary indicator of division in ideologies. The United States has a strong central government, usually preferred by the poor, and it is what creates civility and security. There is a set number of representatives that are elected by the electoral college that hold parts of congress. The executive and judicial branch have different methods of dividing, or balancing, their actions because they too are elected by the people.

The people of the United States do not understand the differences in ideologies, although it is rather simple to grasp. Some would argue with me and say that the class struggle approach to politics is outdated. There is a theory that is designed to support politics now, a new approach which disregards the battle between the haves and the have nots. But I have heard little so really should not comment on the new theory.

Elements of this thread are very enlightening and eye openers of characteristically flawed challenges of the people. We should get along even if our ideologies are opposed to each other because there is hierarchy in civilization. Not just in the United States. In the military, business, government, and society there is hierarchy and conforms to laws that are meant to sustain them. When people are poor, there is a natural tendency, based on temperament, to lash out at the government, or be meek and settled with what is received. We all have had life better since earlier times and we should look at our benefits and blessings more often. Selfishness should be despised in our government so we look out for true instincts and representation. Tyrannical authority is our central government can be voted out or met at the Supreme Court. Rash and crude congress with no interest in wholly representing the people can be voted out at congresses oversight committee. Balance in our government is there and supported with the checks and balances of the people. We all should have more trust in the United States government because they took our vote to get in office. Status representation has existed since time immemorial and it will usually be the elites who control a direction of United States government with their wealth, power, and prestige.     
Title: Re: Politically Opposed: How Can We Live Together?
Post by: guest1 on May 11, 2017, 06:51:23 PM
We all seek after a singular ego expression . A moment of joy and perfection, in which these principles are unified. the ego is formed as it is exposed to the world. the greater that exposure or separation, violent ripping there-from whence it cometh.  It is and receiveth that which it needeth from the world in degrees. Pressure is applied as the ego expresses itself and more comes out and over and over we go, whether you say no or not!