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Personal Discussion => Men, Women, Love & Relationships => Topic started by: Len on March 10, 2013, 10:42:14 PM

Title: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 10, 2013, 10:42:14 PM
There has been a lot of discussion here lately about the spiritual nature of women as compared to men and how this relates to wisdom and the fall of man. The ancient myths and teachings show a definite connection between these subjects, but unfortunately, political correctness has thus far prevented us from openly naming this connection. I think it may be time to break the taboo and truthfully discuss this matter without fear, for without openly knowing the truth, let alone feeling comfortable even asking the question, how can we possibly hope to make a change for the better?

Both Sha’ul and Heremaia have openly stated , and Diane has insinuated, that women were the ancient keepers and teachers of the highest knowledge.

So, without fearing the political correctness that denies even the questions to approach certain truths, I ask: what is the nature and specific characteristics that womankind holds? Why did woman lose this status of being the highest keeper of knowledge, and what role did she play in this loss? Why have we seen over 5,000 years of an unbalanced patriarchal civilization(s)? What does this have to do with the “fall” of man? And, what does woman have to do to regain this status in herself, her family, her community, and society at large?
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 10, 2013, 10:43:04 PM
Quote from: guest1
I think the problem comes from ancestral grudges. Apparently at some point women committed some form of treason in our early societies and this caused them to be distrusted. Time passed and this distrust reached even to those women who had done nothing wrong. Now we're seeing the tide change and women are reclaiming their right to have their revenge for all this injustice by creating a system that treats men who have not oppressed them in any way in an unfair manner judging them for the sins of their male ancestors. I think all of this could be ended if we judged groups and individuals by what they are presently doing and not by what their ancestors have done. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the nature of humankind.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 10, 2013, 10:43:39 PM
Quote from: guest1
Perhaps the creation of life itself was the treasonous act ...
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 10, 2013, 10:44:19 PM
Quote from: guest1
From most of the sources I've read it was some form of miscegenation.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 10, 2013, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: guest1
hmmm. interesting.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 10, 2013, 10:45:42 PM
Ahh, the Gnostic stance... So are you saying, Katsi, that the creative, female aspect of God in 'giving birth' to the material universe is the original sin/treason, and hence the curse of all that is female humankind?
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:02:16 PM
Quote from: guest1
I think it has to do with women's cycles and her relationship to the moon, where once the moon was the major deity, until an event happen that saw the rise of Sun worship. Sin was a babylonian moon god, today sin has a whole different context to which it once held, a fall from the original context of the word, if ever i saw one?

He is commonly designated as En-zu, which means "lord of wisdom". During the period (c.2600-2400 BC) that Ur exercised a large measure of supremacy over the Euphrates valley, Sin was naturally regarded as the head of the pantheon. It is to this period that we must trace such designations of Sin as "father of the gods", "chief of the gods", "creator of all things", and the like. The "wisdom" personified by the moon-god is likewise an expression of the science of astrology, in which the observation of the moon's phases is an important factor.

http://a-world-at-war.tumblr.com/post/13935531901/sin-akkadian-suen-sin-or-nanna-in
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:02:43 PM
Yet, Sin was a male god in the pantheon you speak of, not a female goddess... So, you'll need to elaborate a bit more on the human females' relationship with a Babylonian male moon god.

And, would you care to speculate on the past "event" you speak of?
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:03:38 PM
Quote from: guest1
I am not sure Leonard what the event was that resulted in the fall of moon worship and the rise of sun worship, a change in the heavens, cycles, where the moon was seen to lose influence maybe?.

This confusion in the sex, ascribed to the Sun and Moon by different nations, may have arisen from the fact that the day is mild and friendly, hence the Sun which rules the day would properly be considered feminine, while the Moon which rules the chill and stern night might appropriately be regarded as a man. On the contrary, in equatorial regions, the day is forbidding and burning, while the night is mild and pleasant. Applying these analogies, it appears that the sex of the Sun and Moon would, by some tribes, be the reverse of those ascribed to them by others, climatic conditions being responsible for the confusion.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/slaa/slaa04.htm

Connection between Woman and the Moon

A man by the name of Alexander Marshack, in the 1960's found a piece of bone near the headwaters of the Nile. The bone was close to 30,000 years old. But its age however, was not the most interesting feature. What made this bone particularly unusual is that it had at periodic intervals, notches carved into it as if to mark a sequence of time. He later found many other such markings on bones, antlers, stones and goddess figures, in Czechoslovakia, Russia, Spain and Italy.

After studying these numerous finds, Marshack was convinced that the lines were not made all at once as if to somehow decorate the object, but were made at different times as one would find with any crude calendar. His theory is that these objects were the first attempts at keeping a record of time, and that these markings were actually indications of lunar cycles.

This idea was quite shocking to his academic friends. For it implied a degree of mental sophistication on the part of our early ancestors, that no one had yet imagined. But then something else turned up, something that uncovered their eyes and pulled back the curtain. It is a solitary carving in rock about 17 inches high, discovered in France. Its age has been estimated between 24,000 to 20,000 years old. It is a female figure standing upright. She is holding elevated in her right hand a bison's horn - crescent-shaped like the New Moon. The horn is notched with thirteen lines.

These mysterious thirteen lines became the centre of much discussion. Eventually, they came to be understood to indicate either the thirteen days from the visible New Moon to the Full, or the thirteen New Moons of each yearly cycle.

The most astounding thing about this carving however, is graphically indicated by her left hand. She is resting her left hand upon her swelling womb, showing all to see in no uncertain terms, a relationship between the cycles or phases of the Moon and the cycles of the womb. In this figure, the mystery and power of the celestial realms have become graphically infused and embodied in the Female Form.

This mysterious unity of the celestial and the terrestrial realms personified in the Female is certainly the most powerful and long lasting religious image ever to evolve in the human species. And in fact, it is still with us today. Go into any Catholic church and look closely at the image of the mother of Jesus. She will be found to be standing on the crescent Moon.

http://www.freedomtek.org/en/moon/the_woman_and_the_moon.php
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:04:31 PM
Interesting material, which begins to explain the female relationship with the Divine, but not fully I think...

Also, while your explanation of climate would determine the sex of the sun and moon deities, this would not account for Babylon or the ancient Middle Eastern pantheon as a whole, as the climate there is arid and desert like. Judging by climate alone, Sin should be female, yet he is male.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:05:24 PM
Quote from: guest1
Hi Leonard

Look at Israel, it was once known as the land of milk and honey, yet it is dry and arid today, there have been many climate changes through out time in a lot of areas world wide, what we see today, should not be used to judge its past condition.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:05:59 PM
Israel, bordering the sea, was an oasis surrounded by desert, at least in the time of Moses, who wandered 40 years in the desert before first finding the promised land. And this was when Babylon was at its zenith.

But I'm afraid we're getting off topic...
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:06:29 PM
Quote from: guest1
Q: "what is the nature and specific characteristics that womankind holds?" A:Intuitive perception
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:06:57 PM
I think maybe Rex is on to something here. How might we connect that answer to the other questions in my original post?
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:07:44 PM
Quote from: guest1
Although man of Subsequent Creation has made himself the slave of his own intellect, woman has transgressed to a far greater extent.

Equipped with the greatest delicacy of intuitive perceptions, she should easily swing herself up to the purity of Luminous Heights, and form the bridge to Paradise for all humanity. Woman! Streams of Light should flow through her. Her entire physical, gross material nature is adapted to this. Woman only needs to will honestly, and all the offspring from her womb must be strongly protected and encompassed by the power of the Light even before birth! It could not possibly be otherwise, because every woman through the wealth of her intuitive perception can almost entirely alone influence the spiritual nature of the fruit! Therefore she remains primarily responsible for all her descendants!

In addition she has been richly endowed with unlimited possibilities to influence the entire people, indeed even the whole of Subsequent Creation. Her starting-point of the greatest power is, for her, home and hearth! There alone lies her strength, her unlimited might, but not in public life! In home and family her abilities make her queen. From the quiet, intimate home her incisive virtue extends through the whole people, present and future, and pervades everything.

There is nothing upon which her influence cannot absolutely be brought to bear, if she stands in that place where her inherent womanly abilities fully unfold to blossom. But only if woman is truly womanly does she fulfill the mission which is assigned to her by the Creator. Then she is completely what she can and should be. And it is only genuine womanliness that silently educates the man who, supported by this quiet activity containing undreamed-of power, feels like storming the heavens. Out of an inner naturalness he will then gladly and joyfully seek to protect true womanhood as soon as it only shows itself to be genuine.

But womankind of today trample underfoot their real power and their high mission, they blindly overlook them, wantonly destroy all the sacred gifts they carry within them, and instead of being an upbuilding influence they bring about disintegration, thus being the most poisonous element in Subsequent Creation. They push man as well as children down with them into the abyss. --Abd-ru-shin
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:08:06 PM
Ding ding ding... That is the sound of a very large bell being rung, Rex!!!
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:08:59 PM
Quote from: guest1
Yes off topic, I do not mean to offend you with anything i have posted in any way leonard, (this is just my view) if i have, my apologies  :)

quote

Interesting material, which begins to explain the female relationship with the Divine, but not fully I think...

Could you please elaborate
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:09:46 PM
You haven't offended me at all Heremaia. On the contrary, your posts thus far have been educational, illuminating, and an overall wonderful addition to the group. I for one, hope to see you continue with us as you have so much to share.  :)

As to elaboration, read the quote Rex shared by Abdrushin up thread for starters. I couldn't say it much better than that, although I do plan on elaborating further on the other questions I first raised as this discussion more fully develops.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:10:21 PM
Quote from: guest1
Thanks Leonard, I read the Abdrushin post, and i do agree to a certain extent, but i think some of that responsibility for the way things are now, is also because of man, man and women are one unit, if there is a fault/weakness in the women, then it is man that has allowed that fault/weakness to live and flourish, if man was more resolute in dealing with himself, surely he would have the required skill, in dealing with the fault/weakness in women.

What im trying to say, is we should not seperate ourselves between man and women even thou we are different, that difference is for a purpose, and if that purpose is not seen, who is to blame but man?
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:10:45 PM
The purposes of the differences between man and woman are not only clearly seen, but are constantly elaborated upon by the great sages of every known cultural tradition in history. It is only now, in our modern era, that obscures these beautiful contrasts, rendering our birthright into a sterile and sexless "unit".

And while man has his share of blame for a great number of errors and evils, to say that man could deal with the faults of woman if he only dealt with himself strikes me as a bit chauvinistic.

The golden ages of mankind placed women on a pedestal and taught that women were the keepers of the highest knowledge. If this is true, how could woman, being in a naturally superior position spiritually and otherwise, be knocked off this pedisdal except by woman herself? Not only is that the common sense and logical explanation, it is also what the ancient myths describe as what occurred.

And if the above is true, who else but woman herself can return her to the lofty heights of her true nature but she herself, from which she has "fallen"?

The True Man kneels at the feet of his Goddess...
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:11:21 PM
Quote from: guest1
“It is far easier to be a weakling than to be a Real Man. Were the Earth less harsh or the circumstances of life less austere, man would destroy himself before the shrine of the languid goddess. Only Real Men can with safety destroy the tangled forests and wilderness of Earth and make from them gardens, but will those who inherit the gardens be Real Men? The law decrees that they must be, or the wilderness will reclaim its own.”

I always found that passage about the languid godess quite interesting in the Kolbrin. Is it implying that weren't the earth as harsh then man would become too inclined to the feminine side and thus bring his downfall? Aren't we seeing that right now, an excacerbation of femininity in our world with the consequent social problems we're experiencing? I think femininity is highly powerful in shaping society but it can only do so positively when applied in its correct sphere. If it gets out of control then you get some very nasty results.

Anyway the Kolbrin's perspective on all this is found on the Maya and Lila (or Maeva and Lilith in Gwineva) story.

"Once all men were dark and hairy and in those days woman was tempted by the strength and wildness of the beast which dwelt in the forest, and the race of man was defiled again.

Therefore, the Spirit of God was wrathful against woman, for hers was the responsibility to reject the beast within and without, that she might bring forth children of the light to walk in the light; for in man there is beast and god, and the god walks in light and the beast walks in darkness.

Now, because of the wickedness that was done, there are among men those who are the Children of the Beast, and they are a different people. The race of man alone was punished, for the beast acted according to its nature. In man the beast and god strive to decide whether he shall take his place among the gods that live or the beasts that die, and woman, in her weakness, betrayed him to the beast.

Men struggle daily with the beast and wrest their living from the soil, their day being encompassed with strife and toil. So women bring forth children with suffering, and because they are frail their husbands rule over them. Man is conceived in the womb of woman and she brings him forth to life. Therefore, when God raised man up from among the beasts, choosing him as His heir and endowing him with an immortal spirit, He placed a veil over the portals of life. This, that woman should not forget she is unlike all other living creatures and the trustee of a divine mission. For a woman not only gives life to a mortal being, she also bears a spark of divinity to Earth, and there can be no greater responsibility."

http://thekolbrin.com/kolbrin_b2c1.html
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:11:51 PM
Quote from: guest1
the urn of ancient mysteries,the gardal of the egyptians,and the sacred craters of all religions represent the female reproductive organ and the generation of life. therefore woman was capable of reproducing life initially created from the Creator, making her goddess of early cultures. through ages man with greater strength and thirst for power of dominion created a more complex system which we follow today. in reading many stories of the Fall,it would be quite easily shifted if the author were woman,one should know 1200 years ago catholic priests were allowed to marry,and nan is his wisdom ended that too, and today woman is the only way to recreate what the Creator created...
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:13:00 PM
Quote from: guest1
A Waitaha perspective....

The Haputanga
The impregnation

The Ancient grandmothers developed practices associated with pregnancy, and accompanying ritual and forms, that were employed in the whanau(family) and hapu(tribe). The elders kept all of these memories alive to enable and empower the individual and the community in their development, and the development of the all important mokopuna(grandchild).

To every expectant mother in the first twenty-four weeks of her pregnancy, the mother and grandmothers had several responsibilities. They were to ensure that the expectant mother was made safe, and that she was taught to change her daily rhythms, such as waking up early in the morning, and to observe the stars, to drink lots of fresh water, and to select the star for her baby. She was taught the songs of life from her beginnings. She was told how to care for her baby. She was told often how she was loved and was important to the whanau(family).

While this entire programme was being observed and carried out by the grandmothers and mothers, the grandfathers and fathers were busy watching and recording all the signs and portents in the land, river, sea and sky. Everything was noted and discussed in the Wananga(house of learning).

All these sequences of events were accorded a natural passage in time, and every expectant mother had her time in the universe, so to speak. It was a celebrated time of love, laughter, care, tears of happiness and, sometimes, of sadness.

This time in the universe was accorded to the expectant mother because she too was taking her role as a creator. She was now part of what our people understood as being the creator network, a continuous thought line from the very first birth in the nation to this most auspicious time in her and the nations's life. She was seen to be using her god-like gift of creating a life form or forms within herself.

And as her grandmothers and mother before her, this new mother has now to become the repository of all the experiences that the matriarchal schools have collected over the thousands of years of tribal memory.

Some of the whispered words were allowed to sail free, others were kept as fond memories, while still others were held onto with all the young mother's strength. In essence, the young mother became the point where past and present information was sifted carefully and taken with her into the future. Then, in another future point in time, it was handed across to the next creator in the mother/grandmother network.

The Grandmothers of waitaha saw that the gift of the spirit at birth occurred in seven stages:

Te Kunenga The complete act of fertilisation and germination
Te Mohiotanga The gaining of knowledge during pregnancy, te haputanga
Te wairuatanga The collection of the spirit from the star houses
Te whanautanga The birth of the baby in the physical and spiritual
Te otinga tinana The completion of the life in the physical
Te koru Hokianga The return to the spiral journey again
Te wairua atu The return of the spirit to the spirit house

In all of these stages, the elders saw withn the birthing process the replication of the original birthing of the universe. With this insight into the sacred process, our elders gave the birthng of the individual the highest of the sacred rituals of the wananga.

Many of the births at the time of the foundation of the nation here in Waitangi-ki-Raro saw the children being born to the seventy-two original grandmothers, and then being matched and cross matched with their generation to give the establishment of the pattern some of its original seeding genes. This then became the responsibility of the 'spider singers', to keep the trails of the moko into and out of the resulting family matches.

The total pattern was jealously guarded to ensure that he bloodlines were kept as close as possible to the ancient patterns. It was the grandmothers' legacy of knowing that every individual born in to the family and community gave the community its legacy of survival into the future. The teachers of the wananga kept the records of the babies born into the Maramataka, the calendar of the moon, and the year, and accumulated the general attributes observed over thousands of years of the mokopuna who were born into the particular months. This was to enable the future teacher to provide the foundation knowledge for the mokopuna.

Maramataka was divided into twelve moon houses, or Whare o Marama.

On special occasions, there was brought into being a thirteenth moon house. This was done to absorb, te kai i, the extra time that the elders noticed was being brought about when Papatuanuku(Earth) travelled in her yearly cycle around Te Ra.

Whispers of Waitaha ~ Traditions of a Nation


quote Leonard

And while man has his share of blame for a great number of errors and evils, to say that man could deal with the faults of woman if he only dealt with himself strikes me as a bit chauvinistic.

All i am trying to say is that man must take some responsibility for women's welfare, for is not a down fall of women a down fall for man?

what effects one effects the other

Kolbrin quote

MY daughters, remember your attributes and consider your estate. You can either be the instrument of good to inspire man to great heights of achievement, or be the instruments of evil to degrade him and bring his manhood into disrepute.

would that not be true in a reverse role? Do men also have the capability to inspire women?

A person/individual is effected by there environment, i am only asking if there was something that man could have done, to make the environment more encouraging for women at the point of time of the fall, to enable her not to fall?

True it does come down to the women herself as a individual to make the necessary changes to regain back the glory lost, but is not the union of man and women, represented by marriage, a union of two individuals into one bond, would not the man have a part to play even if it was just in a supporting role.

Kolbrin quote

The power of pro-creation exists in both man and woman, though the power manifests differently in each. It is one power with two aspects, the nature of which is not easily described. The ancients called it the 'twofold ray' and referred to an active and a passive side: one, they said was lighter than the other. The reaction of the two aspects to each other expresses itself in the interplay of love. The compelling force is also twofold, expressing itself in a lower and hight form.

I guess i said what i said, because on some deep down level, i hope to have the capability to set the example for my own partner, to be her inspiration in making the right choices, i did not mean to sound chauvinistic  :)
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on March 12, 2013, 05:13:28 PM
Agree with all you said there, Heremaia.  :)

And of course we could have a thread dealing with the man, but due to recent discussion, I thought a thread tying woman in with these issues was timely. This type of concentrated focus helps to more distinctly show where we've gone wrong in society.

While the man can and should be the woman's support and champion, it will be the unique power of woman to initiate the next shift of eras, a return to balance. That she knows what this entails is all important, and should not all be seen as an unfair burden, but rather the highest of honors to the Divine aspect of her nature too long ignored and forgotten.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:32:45 AM
Quote from: guest1
Heremia, I strongly advise you, that if you have not already , you should read The Lost Book of Enki, by Zecharia Sitchen

Also, Isreal, was similar in ancient times as it is today, only there was a lot more forest, before the Romans cut them all down.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:33:23 AM
Quote from: guest1
I don't feel the questions can be answered with one event, or even a couple events. More like a sort of slow heating the frog in the pan of water.

The following is a THEORY. I’m not trying Insinuate, (Suggest or hint (something negative) in an indirect and unpleasant way.) If I seem angry it is not directed towards anyone here. I’m angry because I feel that possibly I’ve been lied to all my life, and I’m angry for all people, especially women, including myself. It’s not meant to disrespect any of you or beliefs that you have. I respect you and whatever you choose to believe. I’ve chosen to not rule anything out. There’s a lot more to this theory, but my efforts were to try to keep it as short as possible.

Was there miscegenation, (The interbreeding of people of different racial types) ? How about interbreeding between Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon, (early modern human). I believe it began with the rape of Cro-Magnon by Neanderthal. You end up with a whole new type- looks much like Cro-Magnon, maybe even more attractive, but a much more ruthless materialistic predator on the inside. We know it wasn’t just rape. We continued to breed with them. Group Decision? I have no idea. But being that we were a loving, generous, caring, inclusive type of people I’ll bet it was.

So what else did this new creature have that was appealing to Cro-Magnon? This new predator knew how to get what it wanted. It used charm and manipulation to ruthlessly plow it's way through life, leaving a trail of broken hearts and shattered expectations. It played on the weakness of Cro-Magnon. This includes the weakness of men as well as women. Your seductress, our big strong man. Remember they look just like us, maybe lacking a little something on the inside, but the outside probably makes up for that.

There again is where I see both male and female of Cro-Magnon were duped. So how was this the women's fault? Maybe she was choosing them to mate with. That certainly would have caused some problems in the early modern human man world. She’s the one who gives birth. The male Cro-Magnon can mate with all the mixed breed race he wants, but he can’t have a baby. Do we even know for sure they knew that the act of sex made a baby? I’m sure they figured it out sooner or later, but maybe not just yet when this happened.

So much for the Cro-Magnon females great intuition huh? Well, she was pretty darn stupid for choosing the new guys, and bringing these nasty little predators who look just like us into the world. Right? But she didn’t have the wisdom to discern the difference until it was to late. Is this a flaw? You gain wisdom by experience, observation, etc. Having never dealt with a wolf in sheeps clothing how could she have known? The new species probably looked more like her own kind, with an even added attraction. He knew what women liked and charmed his way in, because he was part predator.

Do you see where knowledge was gained? Some of the knowledge of this mix may have been very good to prepare for what comes next. Please note that I said “some”. Could we have survived through the next events without it? I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not. We know that Neanderthal didn’t make it, and if we continue in this rule-by-thugs, dog eat dog society, we won’t survive either. But the mixed race survived, and so did Cro-Magnon, (early modern human).

Enter the Serpent, and very possibly the loss of some knowledge. It’s my opinion that all of Earth was Eden, or most of it. Who is this serpent? Maybe the question should be What Was The Serpent? Enter your destroyer. I’m talking big, not one area, but worldwide. Some say it’s possible Venus was a comet. Either way it was a large comet, or debris from some other celestial event. Most of Eden was eliminated, and many of the people living on it. Thrown out of Eden by a really angry God. That doesn't work or me. Food was everywhere growing free for the taking prior to the Serpents entry. But now we had to fight for it, search for it, war over it, kill for it. Who was better at doing that? The new species of the mix who would probably become most of the leaders, rulers, future kings.

The new species, and the patriarchal rule by the more clever manipulating new race of beings puts the lid on the Goddess, the woman, her intuition, wisdom, worship of life, nature, birth, rebirth etc. Time became linear, no longer cyclical. Some say keeping time began at that point. “So much for her intuition, wisdom and knowledge. Look at the fine mess worshipping the feminine brought about. She didn’t see this coming? She didn’t see that the wrath of God would be brought down to destroy everything?” Bingo, she’s blamed for the whole mess. Her fault, don’t listen to her, keep her quiet, put her in her place, cover her up, make her invisible, until you need her that is. If you believe in a Feminine Goddess, rebirth, the moon, the sun, the earth or anything other than the new one Male God you will be killed, hunted down, persecuted, converted. What did they do to the Shamanic women? They burnt ten of thousands at the stake as witches. What was gained by that? They got rid of the competition, and took her wealth, land, whatever there was.

The what can she do to regain status question is blowing my mind. Given this theory all I could even think of doing would be to try to open eyes as to what may have happened, and that we should rethink a few things. Throw out the whole theory if you must, but please share any theory you know of, and how we man and woman come together again with mutual respect for each other. This isn’t working, and the blame game isn’t passing the truth test for me.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:33:45 AM
Quote from: guest1
Good post Diane. Seems like we still struggle with the same issues that we did back in the ancient times.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:34:14 AM
Diane said, "we should rethink a few things".

Such as?

Men and woman can’t even make the commitment to stay married to one another any longer…

Perhaps it IS TIME, well past time, to remember who is to blame: Ourselves… all of us! And we can start by looking in the mirror.

And that means looking at the faults of our own selves, our own relationships, our own families, our own communities, our own culture, our own race, our own sex, and our species as a whole. All of us should see that major faults and corruptions lie in each one of these units and collectives.

Until woman can say how she has fallen, or man can say how he has fallen… we cannot even begin to return humanity to its ideal…
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:34:35 AM
Quote from: guest1
It is time for many things my friend, unfortunately this doesn't seem to be translating into any materialization of these needful things.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:35:20 AM
We can learn the easy way or the hard way… BUT WE WILL LEARN. That, I can promise.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:36:25 AM
Quote from: guest1
Leonard you'll have to fill me in as to how far off I am. You could always message me. I think we can still do that on facebook. yes? not sure really, they change things here.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:37:11 AM
We will discuss more, Diane... but I'd rather not private message with you too much on Facebook. We shall have another tool for that shortly.  :)
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:37:44 AM
Quote from: guest1
Oh my comment on women that I made many comments back was not online to answer for a few days ... it had to do with her creating new life in the sense of humans - not having anything necessarily to do with creating material things ... like 'goods' - or what have you. That could have been the deal ... Men wanted to control it all from the start and I think there was more than a hint of jealousy involved - a bit of resentment perhaps towards women and their special status as keepers of special knowledge and lore - that they often could also not wrap their heads around ... in addition to their status as life bringers into the world.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:38:42 AM
Quote from: guest1
When I had first heard about the Neanderthal and Cro-Mag interbreeding I had doubts. I had always heard it was impossible. But I'm convinced. Keep coming up against that there was more than one fall too. Wondering about the possibility of mars having been inhabited at one time, and any other planet not to far from us for that matter. Maybe the Angels didn't fall, but part of them, (DNA), or actual physical creatures came here. So many stories, so much to untangle.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/58936/description/Neandertal_genome_yields_evidence_of_interbreeding_with_humans
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:39:23 AM
Quote from: guest1
it is possible martian spirits reincarnated here on earth.

if they did exist
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 04, 2013, 05:39:45 AM
Quote from: guest1
spirit exist in everything, and all spirit is connected to source, so yes it is possible, concidering the planets play a role in cycles, even the cycles of the spirit. Thus according to time and place of birth, what energy signiture is accored to one, via spirit configeration/frequentcy circit of the stars and planets.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 25, 2013, 11:39:32 AM
Quote
The end of the worship of the Mother Goddess, and the subsequent devaluation of women in society, came with the invasion of the northern Indo-European tribes from 2300 BC until the laws of the Hebrews, written down between 1250 and 1000 BC. At this time, the Mother Goddess either became the wife of the more powerful male god, was thought to be murdered by the more powerful male god, as was the case in Babylon where the male Marduk murdered the Goddess to gain his supreme position, or she was simply replaced by the chief god, Yahweh. Canaan, the biblical homeland, was surrounded by matriarchal societies, but it became influenced by the northern male-worshipping societies the most. This early acceptance of the male god has lead to centuries of oppressing women in Western culture....

The Israelites attacked the veneration of the Mother Goddess: the word asherah, the name of the most widely known Syro-Palestinian version of the Mother Goddess, appears often in the Old Testament. Bible scholars believe it refers to a wooden statue or pillar erected to worship Asherah. Whenever an asherah was set up by the Israelites in veneration of the old goddess, they upset the Lord Yahweh (precursor to Jehovah). Moses advised the Israelites to cut down or destroy all asherahs and to embrace the worship of Yahweh. (Artifacts, statues of Asherah, have been found in many ancient temples/churches showing that before they were Christian or Jewish places of worship, Asherah was venerated there. Many statuettes of Asherah show signs of purposeful defacement.)



The Hebrew laws were harsh; in Babylonia, before the major incursions of the Indo Europeans, if a woman was involved sexually with a man other than her husband, she was expected to take an oath at the temple and return home to her husband, but the Hebrew laws give the husband the right to murder both the wife and the lover. The Levite laws of the Israelites, from Moses onward, demand stoning for women who engage in pre-marital sex, marriage of a single woman who was raped to her rapist, and stoning of married or betrothed woman for having been raped. All the shame and sin associated with sex today has its origins in the anti-sex political manouverings of the male-worshipping Near Eastern peoples. They changed Lilith, the Sumerian sub goddess who brought men to the temple for the sacred sex acts of the Mother Goddess, into Adam's first wife, who, because she was not sexually submissive, was thrust out of the Garden of Eden only to become a demon who hovered, waiting to find spilled sperm to make into demon

--Negative translations; "temple woman"= qadushtu translated as "prostitute".

The real misogynistic views, however, are to be found in the myth of Adam and Eve. It can be viewed as one big political attempt to devalue women and destroy the Goddess worship. The serpent has long been the symbol of female wisdom and prophetic council; in ancient times it was associated with the female Mother Goddesses who assumed serpent form or surrounded themselves with serpents. The Egyptian goddesses Isis and Hathor wore cobras on their foreheads as symbol of their mystic insight and wisdom, and often Egyptian royalty are portrayed with an open cobra on their foreheads as a symbol of the all-knowing Eye. The Greek goddess of wisdom Athena was associated with snakes, their was a snake pit in the Parthenon to keep her sacred serpents. The Prophetesses at Delphi were known as "pytha" and pythons were thought to curl around their stools as they sat and prophesied. Snake tubes, tubular artifacts shaped like snakes, were found in temples of Astoreth under her many titles throughout the Near East and Northern Africa. Serpents are symbols of magic in many cultures (Irish, Native American Souix)- gave women prophetesses their power to see. Cassandra of Troy gained her power by having her ears licked by serpents.

--Hebrew word "zonah" is at times defined as "prostitute" and at other times as "prophetess" --shows connection between priestesses of Mother Goddess and their sacred sexual acts and prophecies.

--People immune to snake bites--venom acts like a hallucinogenic drug, people feel like their minds have extraordinary powers and they see visions, are in touch with the world on a higher level.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was not the first sacred tree. Hera had a tree of golden apples in the mythology of ancient Greece that was said to hold the knowledge of the world. In the worship of the Mother Goddess, the sycamore, fig, and mulberry trees are often mentioned as being sacred. In reality, this was one tree, the Near Eastern ficus sicomorus--the sycamore fig, sometimes known as the black mulberry. In ancient Egypt, the goddess Hathor, known as the Serpent Lady, Eye of Wisdom, and Lady of the Sycamore, was worshipped by eating the sycamore fig's fruit, as the flesh and fluid of the goddess. The tree is mentioned in the Bible, when Adam and Eve adorn themselves in fig leaves, and when Ezekiel rails against pagan idols.

TO REVIEW: The Goddess was known and revered as the prophetess of great wisdom, closely identified with the serpent, as the original Creatress, and the patroness of sexual pleasures and reproduction. Hathor was credited with having taught people how to procreate. Ishtar, Ashtoreth and Inanna were each esteemed ass the tutelary deity of sexuality and new life. The sacred women celebrated this aspect of her being by making love in the temples.

To the patriarchal Levites (Hebrews) the worship of the Mother Goddess was threatening, for freedom of sexual behavior in women brought paternity and divine right succession into doubt. In order to erase the veneration of the Mother Goddess and replace it with the worship of the male god Yahweh, the priests of the male deity had to convince themselves and their congregations that sex was immoral, the "original sin." In each sentence of the biblical creation myth as written by the Levite priests, the tenets of the Goddess religion are attacked. Every kind of reference to man being from woman is erased; a male god created the universe and he created se male humans' rib female was created. Woman presented as a gift to man, she will help or serve him an any way.

Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which, to the ancient Hebrews, was probably understood to represent the sacred sycamore fig of the Goddess, the asherah. Ancient Egyptian texts say that to eat of this fruit is to eat the flesh and fluid of the Goddess, the patroness of sexual pleasure and reproduction, but the Bible story says that the forbidden fruit caused the couple's consciousness of sexuality...which embarrasses them and makes them sinners.

THE BIBLE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT THE WOMAN EVE ATE OF THE FRUIT FIRST--UPON THE ADVICE AND COUNSEL OF THE SERPENT--the ancient peoples would know that the serpent was the symbol of the Goddess. A WOMAN'S JUDGEMENT HAD LED TO THE TO DISASTER FOR THE WHOLE HUMAN SPECIES. Symbols of the Mother Goddess are now negatively portrayed, and the council of the prophetesses of the Mother Goddess were to be feared and hated. Woman as sage and advisor or councilor could be no longer respected, and the priestesses of the Goddess lost their power.

Furthermore, the image of Eve as the sexually tempting, God-defying seductress was intended as a warning to all hebrew men to stay away from the sacred women of the temples, for if they participate in the sacred sexual acts, they accept the female deity. This also prevents the resulting matrilineal identity for any children who might be conceived by the priestesses.

Proof of Eve as cunning and contriving arouser of the physical desires of men was given in the form of pain during childbirth--the eternal punishment for teaching men bad habits. This was further compounded by God's decry that women's desire will be only for their husbands, and that the husbands will rule over the wives.

So--all images are desecrated: snake, tree, sex, and wisdom.

Proven through the change in the Mother Goddess's portrayal in art.


"...Nursing snakes in the Greco-Roman artistic tradition were meant to allude to the nourishment provided by the earth for all creatures, but by the 12th century the snake was firmly equated with the demon; and the semi-nude figure suckling snakes was ...reinterpreted as lust personified."

http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/99/maya/sarah.html

Still very confused why the woman is blamed for this.  Don't get it. 

Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 26, 2013, 12:35:54 AM
The sexual revolution of the 20th Century and modern so-called "Feminist" movements make this difficult to understand in today's Western culture. So, if it is to be understood, it can only be learned slowly by seeing beyond current mindsets and biases. It takes time to overcome certain ingrained assumptions.

Let us try to begin with this... Humans exist on different bands or frequency ranges, from those 'seen' to those 'unseen', commonly thought of as the physical and the spiritual. One of those bands is sexual. The human female's frequency range, generally speaking, covers a much wider range than the human male's. The female's sexual band transcends Earthly, physical sex to a much greater degree than the male's. This wider range allows the choice in the woman to work anywhere from the highest level of this spectrum to the lowest, and while men choose their own place on the scale as well, the range is more limited in scope. These male and female ranges also influence each other, but the female, because of her greater range influences the male’s pattern and level of scale to higher and lower areas he would not be able to reach on his own. It is a carrying effect, in some ways like a magnetic or gravitational force.

The results of what we have seen in the stories of the fall, before the fall, and into modern times displays that woman, when she is at her most refined and purest level on the sexual frequency scale is higher than any man on this level. She is the ancient wisdom keeper, the guide of mankind, and caretaker of all Earth's children. At her lowest and most depraved level, she is lower than any man on the sexual band. She leads men astray, her children (the future generations of mankind) are lost and wayward, and the ignorant, unguided viciousness of men retaliates with his foot on her throat.

At her highest, woman is the most high. At her lowest, woman is the most low. Collectively, she has created either condition for herself.

In our ignorance today, we see not that there is the greatest difference between the Temple Virgin and the Temple Prostitute, and the vastly opposite kinds of cultures each eventually engenders.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 26, 2013, 09:40:38 AM
Len, wondering if you can help me to understand the quote below.  I know you know much more about gnostic teachings than I.  Our fallen angel stories, are they about Pistis?  Lucifera Sophia? Or am I off track again?  :-\ 

Quote
Again, his disciples said: "Tell us clearly how they came down from the invisibilities, from the immortal to the world that dies?"

The perfect Savior said: "Son of Man consented with Sophia, his consort, and revealed a great androgynous light. His male name is designated 'Savior, Begetter of All Things'. His female name is designated 'All-Begettress Sophia'. Some call her 'Pistis'.

"All who come into the world, like a drop from the Light, are sent by him to the world of Almighty, that they might be guarded by him. And the bond of his forgetfulness bound him by the will of Sophia, that the matter might be <revealed> through it to the whole world in poverty, concerning his (Almighty's) arrogance and blindness and the ignorance that he was named. But I came from the places above by the will of the great Light, (I) who escaped from that bond;

I have cut off the work of the robbers; I have awakened that drop that was sent from Sophia, that it might bear much fruit through me, and be perfected and not again be defective, but be <joined> through me, the Great Savior, that his glory might be revealed, so that Sophia might also be justified in regard to that defect, that her sons might not again become defective but might attain honor and glory and go up to their Father, and know the words of the masculine Light. And you were sent by the Son, who was sent that you might receive Light, and remove yourselves from the forgetfulness of the authorities, and that it might not again come to appearance because of you, namely, the unclean rubbing that is from the fearful fire that came from their fleshly part. Tread upon their malicious intent."
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 26, 2013, 09:50:48 AM
whoops, did it again. Link it below.  Message to self...do not try to do 10 things at one time.  :D

http://www.maidenoflight.com/SophiaJesus.htm
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on April 28, 2013, 01:13:19 AM
You're not too far off track, I think. The fall of Sophia (Wisdom) is the story of the fall of the characteristic of Wisdom personified, whereas fallen angels, generally speaking, refer to the fall of actual soul entities. This is partially relating to the first commingling of the Spirit with Matter.

The 'Fall of Man' relates to a later event(s) which occurs while mankind is already in the flesh. There are similarities to both, however.
Title: Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
Post by: guest1 on June 29, 2013, 06:20:55 AM
Fallen angels ?
By this term are we referring to the Biblical Nephelim or in English, "those who fell ?
I know there is a lot of potential spiritual meaning for this term, but to the people who used it, it was pointing to something very real and physical.
The Nephilem, as far as I can tell from what I have read, Bible, book of Enoch, Enuma Elish, were not spiritual beings, they were physical extra terrestrials, who came "down" to Earth, and wrecked havoc, as is told in the ancient accounts.
The B'nei Anak, (Sons of Anak (Annunaki), were the race of giants that were decended from the Nephilim, as Jewish folklore and Biblical exegisis holds, they were not Martian spirit beings or anything less than a physical bad guy.

Zecharia Sitchen put the story together well in the Book of Enki, the Igigi Anunnaki from Mars, got tired of their Spartan and celibate lifestyle on the Mars ore refinery base, and on a trip to Earth when their king An was visiting, kidnaped a whole bunch of earth females. They "lost their first estate" as it were, because they were forbidden to return to their base on Mars with their new pets.
That's my take, far too much spiritualisation going on about this topic I feel.
Nephelim=Annunaki=B'nei Anak=Goliath of Gat.
Now the lions ?
Love and light to you all