Author Topic: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration  (Read 10020 times)

January 14, 2013, 03:00:11 PM

Offline Len

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Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« on: January 14, 2013, 03:00:11 PM »
Quote from: Manuel Cufre
Are you guys as frustrated as me that there's no hard evidence to provide? Wait, that's a rhetorical question, I know you aren't. Imagine if you could provide undeniable evidence for the Kolbrin's authenticity, how long until someone would use it create some abhorrent religion and justify enslaving natives in the Amazons with it just by quoting some obscure passage from the Book of the Sons of Fire? You know it would happen. Hell, Deuteronomy falls short of some of those Hoskiah's laws, they would go nuts with it. Maybe it's better the way it is.

Another thing I wonder sometimes, seeing that the Culdians don't really know much more about the Kolbrin's provenance than any of us, is there at least some hardcore Kolbrin researchers among you that have actually made sense of some of the most puzzling chapters?

January 14, 2013, 03:00:45 PMReply #1

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 03:00:45 PM »
It bothers some of us...not me. Define 'puzzling', Manuel.

January 14, 2013, 03:02:55 PMReply #2

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 03:02:55 PM »
Quote from: Manuel Cufre
Do you really wanna go there? Remember I am a Kolbrin nerd, I could ask you a thousand questions, like what time frame and geographic location did the Maya and Lila chapter occur at, where did Fanvar hail from? What about Herhtew and Habaris? Which antediluvian civilization was Ramakui? And Tameruah?

I could go on forever

Mind you I have my own Hypotheses   ;)

January 14, 2013, 03:03:36 PMReply #3

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 03:03:36 PM »
Oh boy...my personal expertise with the Kolbrin does not relate exactly to those types of technical questions. However, there are those among us that have studied just those kind of questions for years.

January 14, 2013, 03:06:11 PMReply #4

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 03:06:11 PM »
Quote from: Manuel Cufre
there's plenty of OCD folks going crazy around the interwebz trying to find that evasive vatican agent that can lead them to the plates and finally show the world what the truth is. LOL: The Kolbrin has gathered tons of attention, but the shills have just too many tools to neutralize it. I have met many really dedicated Kolbrin researchers throughout the years, way more than me and smart folks too. But just as frustrated.

Smarter than me I meant to say , way more.

January 14, 2013, 03:10:30 PMReply #5

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 03:10:30 PM »
Quote from: Luminuous Epinoia
just make sure they don't crucify you physically, manuel. Be sly as a serpent and pure as a dove...!  :)

January 14, 2013, 03:11:37 PMReply #6

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 03:11:37 PM »
Quote from: Manuel Cufre
Pfffft Luminous, believe me, they totally want to crucify me,or something worse..... luckily I have been following that advice for a while and they end up liking me too much to get rid of me.

January 14, 2013, 03:12:45 PMReply #7

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 03:12:45 PM »
Quote from: Luminuous Epinoia
we have not attained the Pleroma (Primordial Perfection AKA Buddhahood), so we can't resurrect ourselves... so we can't risk getting ourselves crucified!  8)

January 14, 2013, 03:14:11 PMReply #8

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 03:14:11 PM »
Quote from: Manuel Cufre
I certainly haven't attained that, so if they kill me who knows in what shape I might end up coming back here. Oh lord, don't even wanna think about it.

Or maybe I wouldn't come back at all....

"Amēn, amēn, I say unto you If I had not changed their path, a host of souls would have been destroyed, and they would have spent a long time, if the rulers of the æons and the rulers of the Fate and of the sphere and of all their regions and all their heavens and all their æons had not been brought to naught; and the souls would have continued a long time here outside, and the completion of the number of perfect souls would have been delayed, which [souls] shall be counted in the Inheritance of the Height through the mysteries and shall be in the Treasury of the Light. For this cause then I have changed their path, that they might be deluded and fall into agitation and yield up the power which is in the matter of their world and which they fashion into souls, in order that those who shall be saved, might be quickly purified and raised on high, they and the whole power, and that those who shall not be saved, might be quickly destroyed."

January 14, 2013, 11:25:20 PMReply #9

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 11:25:20 PM »
Quote from: Rex Perkins
"Really, the only thing the Kolbrin had going for it was the claimed history out of Glastonbury. As a legitimate alternative history it would be extraordinary, as a channeled book, not so much." - Anon

Leonard, this is why the Kolbrin provenance matters... many find channeling dubious at best. I, for one, am glad of the moral instruction the Kolbrin gives... but if it is based on a lie even for the greater good... then it's fruit will wither.

January 14, 2013, 11:26:00 PMReply #10

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 11:26:00 PM »
The Culdian Trust has no evidence to offer others either proving or disproving the provenance of the Kolbrin with physical evidence of things like original manuscripts, names and local places of organizations it was received from, and other like items. We have been completely transparent in this regard, and you know as much as we do in this area.

I have said there are methods to prove such matters, and for the most part these things have been mocked or rejected out of hand. This is your choice, and there is nothing more we can offer you along these lines.

As there is nothing further I can add along these lines, I wish each of you luck in your hunt for provenance.

January 14, 2013, 11:27:43 PMReply #11

Offline Len

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 11:27:43 PM »
By the way, the Culdian Trust as a whole makes no official claim that the Kolbrin is any more historically accurate than Harry Potter. Consider carefully the following statements (emphasis mine) taken from the Foreword and Introduction that lightly touch explicitly on provenance, among other important considerations:

“What is presented in this book is a reproduction of one of SEVERAL VERSIONS…

… it has lately been decided that it should be made available now, subject to EXPLICIT CONDITIONS…

…in TRANSMISSION some PERSONAL COLORATIONS may have crept in…

… The Kolbrin is tendered for acceptance at its FACE VALUE…

… One difficulty has been the fact that the guardians of the Kolbrin have NEVER BEEN LITERARY FOLK but simple craftsmen and people far removed from the scholastic and even commercial world. Although it formulates a distinctive spiritual philosophy, THIS BOOK IS NOT CLAIMED TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A TRANSMITTER OF AGELESS WISDOM…

… No one can claim authorship and the present RECONSTRUCTORS who have compiled the book…

… There has, however, been a CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF RECONSTRUCTION, as the original writings survived only precariously…

…ADDITIONAL MATERIAL HAS BEEN INCORPORATED with good intent, to fill gaps and elaborate on the original. Something may have been lost in the MODERNIZATION of various parts…

… THIS IS NOT INTENDED to be a historical record, an intellectual work or literary effort…

… they were written out in book form in the seventeenth century…

… The whole was MODERNIZED in the latter part of the nineteenth or early part of the twentieth century…

… copies were written out in ‘BIBLICAL ENGLISH’ and TWO OF THE BOOKS were in existence just before the first world war…

… It has not been easy to RECONSTITUTE THEM… even with the assistance of a more knowledgeable co-worker who FILLED IN the few GAPS with COMPATIBLE REFERENCES TO MODERN WORKS…

…some of the proper names are SPELT WRONGLY and some of the original correct ones may have been REPLACED by others…

…NO CLAIM IS MADE REGARDING HISTORICAL ACCURACY… this is NOT A HISTORICAL WORK but the corpus of a doctrine and way of life…

… The importance of what is given here lies in what is projected out of the past into the present lamentable spiritual vacuum; in the help it can offer to the ordinary man and woman, not in what it offers to the literary world. On this basis alone these writings must stand to be judged…

… They (the Masters) found assurance but CANNOT CONVEY IT DIRECTLY TO OTHERS... If others want it they too must tread the path the Masters trod, a long weary road not for the faint-hearted. The first step along that road is the study of the moral code and standard of conduct required. The next step is to put these into practice, making them the rule of life. They are the disciplines which enabled the truly enlightened ones of the past to awaken inner perception and make direct contact with the Universal Source of Truth. Only by following in their steps can anyone be assured of a path certain of reaching the desired goal…"

And the above is only in the introduction…imagine what has been glossed over in the actual text!

March 23, 2013, 10:08:54 PMReply #12

Offline Laraine

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2013, 10:08:54 PM »
May I add to this discussion. If frustration is due to anyone, it is all mine!  For 10 months I worked on the Kolbrin and I was hooked, I too wanted to know its origins. I had been involved in the very beginning when we were asked if we would take the task seriously.  Our task was to accept Ancient knowledge from Britain and keep it safe in New Zealand. Actually from the Northern Hemisphere we were told.  This was 33 years ago. The first work was the Book of Gwineva which gave reference to a Book pending and an excerpt or reference to a story from the Kolbrin was in it.   When asked if I would take on the Kolbrin I was aghast , I was not a speed typist etc. I found my fascination grew to the extent I journeyed five times back to Britain and one trip took a campervan for two months to the extremities.I am  always drawn to Wales , I went to Aberyswyth National Library, No they hadn't heard of it......I was invited into the Masonic Library in Edinburgh, wow! overwhelming but two hours could not produce what I needed. Iona had a great Library on Culdees, now that was where to start looking, I found many sites and references to Culdees. In those days not very well known. Culdees are now on the Map again.    Their persecution and annihilation ( much like the Waitaha) made sure everything went underground.  But one area I was quite good at was understanding the Metaphysical content and used my abilities to be drawn to some most stunning areas and experiences. My hope is one more trip......   Wales is where I will head.  I am drawn to Llantony.. I will write about these journeys one day. I like Manuel 's comments  further back.... if they get provenance what will they turn it into?   I was stunned at people felt threatened by this work!  Enough fear to make them abusive!!!!  If this discussion continues I hope it will rack my brain to remember more..... but I wanted you to know that as a Culdian I attempted at my own cost to help this Book have provenance.  Others are just really happy to accept it as it is. An incredible piece of work and not channeled by any of us!

March 27, 2013, 06:05:43 AMReply #13

Offline Manu

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 06:05:43 AM »
May I add to this discussion. If frustration is due to anyone, it is all mine!  For 10 months I worked on the Kolbrin and I was hooked, I too wanted to know its origins. I had been involved in the very beginning when we were asked if we would take the task seriously.  Our task was to accept Ancient knowledge from Britain and keep it safe in New Zealand. Actually from the Northern Hemisphere we were told.  This was 33 years ago. The first work was the Book of Gwineva which gave reference to a Book pending and an excerpt or reference to a story from the Kolbrin was in it.   When asked if I would take on the Kolbrin I was aghast , I was not a speed typist etc. I found my fascination grew to the extent I journeyed five times back to Britain and one trip took a campervan for two months to the extremities.I am  always drawn to Wales , I went to Aberyswyth National Library, No they hadn't heard of it......I was invited into the Masonic Library in Edinburgh, wow! overwhelming but two hours could not produce what I needed. Iona had a great Library on Culdees, now that was where to start looking, I found many sites and references to Culdees. In those days not very well known. Culdees are now on the Map again.    Their persecution and annihilation ( much like the Waitaha) made sure everything went underground.  But one area I was quite good at was understanding the Metaphysical content and used my abilities to be drawn to some most stunning areas and experiences. My hope is one more trip......   Wales is where I will head.  I am drawn to Llantony.. I will write about these journeys one day. I like Manuel 's comments  further back.... if they get provenance what will they turn it into?   I was stunned at people felt threatened by this work!  Enough fear to make them abusive!!!!  If this discussion continues I hope it will rack my brain to remember more..... but I wanted you to know that as a Culdian I attempted at my own cost to help this Book have provenance.  Others are just really happy to accept it as it is. An incredible piece of work and not channeled by any of us!

Thanks for sharing that Laraine. Please share whatever you uncover if you ever make that trip to Wales. :)

November 18, 2013, 04:28:54 PMReply #14

Offline djinnee

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Re: Kolbrin Provenance Frustration
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2013, 04:28:54 PM »
Looking through margin notes in a copy of the Kolbrin, perhaps here is a small piece of provenance.  Very small.

From the Book of Manuscripts, chapter 19.  pp. 207 in 1st ed. pp. 197 in 2nd ed.

"Ramotip, son of Yagob by Ilipa daughter of Pasinesu, Commander of the Royal Protectors, found him by the road to Basiros, as he journeyed to meet the great bride."

The Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC holds in one of its collections a funerary cone of a one "Pasinesu - Chief of servants of the Royal House."  Found in Thebes by Norman de Garis Davies dated to the early 18th Dynasty Egypt and gifted to the museum in 1930.  Maybe other objects from the same gifted collection or same area of find point to other clues?  Collection 117.


Also, Culdee

Theories on origin of the 'Culdees'

Early Beginnings

Protestant and Presbyterian writers

Culdees had preserved Celtic Christianity, free from supposed Roman corruptions, in one remote corner of western Europe
This view was enshrined in Thomas Campbell’s Reullura:
"Peace to their shades. The pure Culdee were Albyn’s earliest priests of God, Ere yet an island of her seas by foot of Saxon monk was trod."

Hector Boece - (sometimes spelt Boethius, or Boyce) (1465(dundee)-1536(Aberdeen)) was a Scottish philosopher and first Principal of King's College in Aberdeen, a predecessor of the University of Aberdeen.

Latin history of Scotland (1516), makes them the direct successors in the 9th to the 12th century of the organised Irish and Iona monasticism of the 6th to the 8th century.  William Reeves (1815–1892), bishop of Down, Connor and Dromore.

Another theory suggests the possibility that the Rule of Chrodegang, archbishop of Metz (d. 766), was brought by Irish monks to their native land from the monasteries of north-eastern Gaul, and that Irish anchorites originally unfettered by the rules of the cloister bound themselves by it.

In the 9th century we find nine places in Ireland (including Armagh, Clonmacnoise, Clones, Devenish and Sligo) where communities of these Culdees were established as a kind of annex to the regular monastic institutions.

They seem especially to have had the care of the poor and the sick, and were interested in the musical part of worship.

The Iona monks had been expelled by the Pictish king Nechtan son of Derile in 717.

James A. Wylie (1808–1890). The Culdees (Keledei) of Scotland are related to the Celtic Christian spirituality of the monks of Iona.
Over the course of several hundred years, the Culdee leaders of the church in Scotland were edged out of positions of authority and temporal support by outside church officials.  These officials appear to have been brought into the country for the sole purpose of dispossessing the existing local officials in order to snuff out the independence of the Celtic Christian tradition. Numerous historical references for the persecution of the Kelede by the Roman church at large to support this view.

The opposition of both Queen Margaret and King David I who were staunch supporters of the practices of the continental church and who would have no reason to fear a sect professing the continental practices.

Óengus the Culdee (b.d.Clonenagh)
lived in the last quarter of the 8th century, best known as the author of the Félire Óengusso "the Martyrology of Óengus".
Becoming a hermit, he lived for a time at Disert-beagh, where, on the banks of the Nore, he is said to have communed with the angels.
From his love of prayer and solitude he was named the "Culdee"; in other words, the Ceile Dé, or "Servant of God."
Not satisfied with his hermitage, which was only a mile from Clonenagh, and, therefore, liable to be disturbed by students or wayfarers, Óengus removed to a more solitary abode eight miles distant.
This sequestered place, two miles southeast of the present town of Maryborough, was called after him "the Desert of Óengus", or "Dysert-Enos".
Here he erected a little oratory on a gentle eminence among the Dysert Hills, now represented by a ruined and deserted Protestant church.
His earliest biographer (9th century)[citation needed] relates the wonderful austerities practiced by St. Óengus in his "desert", and though he sought to be far from the haunts of men, his fame attracted a stream of visitors.
The result was that the good saint abandoned his oratory at Dysert-Enos, and, after some wanderings, came to the monastery of Tallaght, near Dublin, then governed by St. Maelruain.

He entered as a lay brother, concealing his identity, but St. Maelruain soon discovered him and collaborated with him on the Martyrology of Tallaght.   

This was a work of Northumbrian provenance, probably from Lindisfarne, which first passed through Iona and Bangor, where Irish scribes began to make some additions. The manuscript (now lost) finally arrived in Tallaght, where it received the majority of its Irish additions.
It was written by someone of Óengus's learning and literary skill at Tallaght and there are strong indications that this was Óengus himself:
First of all the sources named by Óengus in the epilogue to the Félire (see above) would make more sense if these were the materials used for the Martyrology of Tallaght; second, a number of saints whom the same epilogue claims to have included are found in the Martyrology of Tallaght, but not in the actual Félire.

High Middle Ages

Those who accept the orthodox Roman viewpoint generally believe that the features of their life in Scotland, which would be the most important epoch in the history of the order, seem to resemble closely those of the secular canons of England and the continent.

From the outset they were more or less isolated, and, having no fixed forms or common head, tended to decay.
In the 12th century the Celtic Church was completely metamorphosed on the Roman pattern, and in the process the Culdees also lost any distinctiveness they may formerly have had, being brought, like the secular clergy, under canonical rule.
The pictures that we have of Culdee life in the 12th century vary considerably.
The chief houses in Scotland were at St Andrews, Scone, Dunkeld, Lochleven, Monymusk in Aberdeenshire, Abernethy and Brechin.
Each was an independent establishment controlled entirely by its own abbot and apparently divided into two sections, one priestly, the other lay and even married.
At St. Andrews about the year 1100 there were thirteen Culdees holding office by hereditary tenure and paying more regard to their own prosperity and aggrandizement than to the services of the church or the needs of the populace.

The Best book I have read regarding the history of the Culdees is
JOHN JAMIESON, D.D., F.R.S., F.A.S.E. (1759-1838(edenburgh))A HISTORY OF THE CULDEES HISTORICAL ACCOUNT OF THE ANCIENT CULDEES OF IONA And of their Settlements in Scotland England, and Ireland.

Message me if you are interested in reading the Jaimeson book as I have outlined it.  The above information written regarding the Culdees is from this book.

I just found another book in my collection called "The Mabinogi an Clem - The Story of the Children of Clem ", published by the Authors, Frederic Headly Barker Climo and Percy J. Climo, which gives a personal family pedigree and is a great historical reference for the history of Cornwall Britain, its Celtic roots as well as for the migration of the people of Cornwall to other parts of the world.


Admin note: Follow this bit of history discussion on the following thread: http://culdiantrust.org/culdianforums/index.php?topic=181.0
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 03:19:03 PM by Len »