Author Topic: Forgetting Our History  (Read 5320 times)

November 13, 2013, 09:38:38 PM

Offline guest1

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Forgetting Our History
« on: November 13, 2013, 09:38:38 PM »
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We've lost memorizing poems, stories and history. We've lost the stories told from one generation to another. I've recently been researching my families ancestry. My husbands grandmother could sit for hours reciting the family history she knew since a child. I think it's important to tell the children what you know, what you remember. As boring as it may seem to them, they will remember bits and pieces and it will be important to them later in life as they go through their own life experiences.

" BRT:6:33 The art of the scribe came to Britain with the highbrowed one who taught Gwilidun of Ivern, who had seven sub-scribes. He said to the king, "This strange art will make the Britons wiser and will improve their memories, for it is the very essence of memory, which has been brought to this island." The king said, "Most wonderful, but while you may be prepared to bestow this, have you the ability to judge the worth of this art? Should not this be with another?

The potter lacks the ability to judge the worth of his own pots, or the knight his own horse. Therefore, the ability to judge the usefulness or harm of this new thing should surely lie with another. Now, you who are the master of letters have been so swayed by your affection for them that you endow them with powers quite the opposite of what they actually possess.

For this new thing will not increase the range of memory, but will lead to forgetfulness in the mind of those who learn this strange art. It encourages men to cease to practise their memory. Are the legs of a horseman equal to those of a man who walks? With time, men will put their trust in writing, and these strange signs will discourage memory.

They are not instruments of memory but of reminding. Those who learn to read many things without proper instruction will then give an appearance of knowing many things, of which they are in fact ignorant. They will be hard to get along with, since they will not be wise but only appear so."

it has led to forgetfulness. we've forgotten the lessons learned in the past. what happens when you don't know or forget the lessons of the past? You repeat them.

November 13, 2013, 09:39:20 PMReply #1

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 09:39:20 PM »
Some of the best, and most interesting, things are still passed on orally. Unfortunately, in this era, most do not care to listen. And the few that do listen, mainly do not believe; having lost connection to their own innate ancestral memories among other connections, preferring instead to believe and rely what is writ, instead of what is remembered and known...

The vicious circle spirals downward eventually to the point where even what is writ cannot be relied upon; the internal rudder smashed and memory atrophied...

January 30, 2014, 03:28:07 PMReply #2

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 03:28:07 PM »
A rather sad indictment upon our society...

February 13, 2014, 12:35:25 AMReply #3

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 12:35:25 AM »
The dichotomy between written and oral history is a struggle between those who pass on truth and those who benefit from fiction. Until we perceive reality(truth) naturally from within we need knowledge for reference. For now knowledge as fiction reigns supreme. Yet truth is found at times. Oral history is beautiful and missed in a world where culture is destroyed overtly. The history record and knowledge have been in the hand of the destroyers for a long time. Finding a collective consciousness in any area of Light will be victory. We stand on the edge as we type, looking into the abyss of the collective unconscious. When there is a 'Superbowl' of the spirit instead of the NFL written, oral or digital will not matter. Truth will be as clear as the sense of right from wrong inside each heart. I pray and search for a glimpse of the truth.
Tim Hallen

February 14, 2014, 02:26:45 AMReply #4

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 02:26:45 AM »
Some of the best, and most interesting, things are still passed on orally. Unfortunately, in this era, most do not care to listen. And the few that do listen, mainly do not believe; having lost connection to their own innate ancestral memories among other connections, preferring instead to believe and rely what is writ, instead of what is remembered and known...

Hi Len, you say above that people are "preferring" to believe and rely on what is writ, "instead" of what is remembered and known.
I wonder if that is so clear cut, as I doubt many modern people, at least in the Western world, ever get to really hear the stories their elders carry in their hearts. My generation was maybe the last, I'm 48, and had my grandfather tell me about his experience as a soldier during WW2.
We grew up in a world that didn't have all the electronic gadgetry to distract us like the young people have today. Our world, still retained the respectful traditions and moral boundaries, natural as they are, or were. No such boundaries or moral traditions exist for many young  people today, their parents being often no more than children themselves.
These children have no destiny to aspire too, no moral heroes whos likeness they aspire to emulate, they are lost, and hear no guiding voice of the past, oral, or written. They know not their place in society, and they have no "social ethic", caring only for the fast fix, and with the pleasures of the "now".
They don't even know that their ever was, or still is, a guiding voice from the past, or people with real wisdom to hand on to willing learners.
No thought in their heads, that such guidance is even needed, for they know not, the degradation of their spiritual state, they don't even know how miserable they feel, and what lack of joy their life contains, compared to what it could be. Having no archetype, being without spiritual knowledge, in their minds, with no archetype to compare their current state too. They are oblivious, of the former times, and walk unguided, into a daunting, hollow future, empty of purpose, and love.

* Admin edit to separate quote from post
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 07:53:32 PM by Len »

February 16, 2014, 08:20:17 PMReply #5

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 08:20:17 PM »
I pray and search for a glimpse of the truth.

It sounds like you're in the right place then, Tim, as we all are here. And welcome...  :)

The history record and knowledge have been in the hand of the destroyers for a long time.

Not just the destroyers, Tim, it is just they who are better able to manipulate and distort the minds of others for their own ends... Learn their tricks while training to master yourself and becoming more aware. Their sorcery will fail before you, and you will discover, both within and without, the knowledge and wisdom they seek to hide. It was never truly lost... It is our birthright to discover again for our own and collective use.

Hi Len, you say above that people are "preferring" to believe and rely on what is writ, "instead" of what is remembered and known. I wonder if that is so clear cut...

In the final equation, Sha'ul, people either "prefer" to wallow where they are or pull themselves out of the muck, as difficult as that can be. Can this be made easier with heroic examples and wise teachers to learn from and aspire to? Most certainly it can be... but I ask you, who is the one that is greater, stronger, and more wise; he who is led by the hand with every advantage, or he who had nothing but acquired everything from the sweat of his brow and blood on his feet?

I tell you truly, it is the second man that God will favor beyond the stars...

All of us have this potential, and Earthly conditions as they are now allow each of us a chance for this greatness!

March 15, 2014, 06:33:06 PMReply #6

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2014, 06:33:06 PM »
I agree Len.  Tim, you are in the right place.  Remember, though, Truth, in all is guises, is everywhere to be seen, touched, tasted, heard, smelt, reacted to and experienced.  The aim, in my opinion, is to realise that Truth, no matter how it appears, can (and must) have room for expansion.

History, unlike Truth, is written by the victors.  Truth, on the other hand, remains as Truth, growing as it becomes more readily discernible and understood.  History becomes lost in untold countless stories over decades, centuries, eons, etc., but Truth is never lost; misplaced for sure, but never lost.  The creation of the present day Culdians is a clear example of this.

It has to be realised that those who believe themselves as rulers here on Earth fervently believe they are so and use every means at their disposal to ensure this becomes a reality for them.  Their lores and levels of spiritual development are equally among the world's best.  Their mages and spiritual lights are just as potent and luminous as anyone else's.  However, in our three-dimensional existence there are always opposites, and this there will always be until such times as we each transcend the need for three-dimensional experiences.

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In the final equation, Sha'ul, people either "prefer" to wallow where they are or pull themselves out of the muck, as difficult as that can be.
I would also like to add that this may not necessarily be the case.  If people need to experience what others may class as wallowing in muck then this is what they need to experience.  Eventually they will move beyond this state of being, but there may well be a very appropriate reason why this should be experienced for a period of time.  Nor, do I believe, that pulling themselves out of the much to be difficult - unless, of course, one chooses it to be so.

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but I ask you, who is the one that is greater, stronger, and more wise; he who is led by the hand with every advantage, or he who had nothing but acquired everything from the sweat of his brow and blood on his feet?
Both are just as strong (or weak) and wise (or not) as each other.  The task(s) to transcend the so-called tests of either are equal as, I believe are the outcomes or rewards (should one look at this in either light). 

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I tell you truly, it is the second man that God will favor beyond the stars...
I cannot agree with this statement for two reasons:

  • the level of work for those who have everything is just as difficult (and one could argue moreso) as it is for 'he who has nothing'.
  • this type of thinking denotes a need for someone wealthy to keep others from attaining the same kind of wealth (in its widest concept).  This, in itself, is an age-old tactic to keep the wealthy wealthy and the poor poor.  Take a look about you in today's society; the same game is still being played.

March 15, 2014, 07:41:20 PMReply #7

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2014, 07:41:20 PM »
Below is a link to a website I noticed. Deception being so pervasive I have no basis to judge. But the description of "media" seemed to be on the mark. Television being the player it is for many has been used as a hypnotic device for control. It was different to see the following post.

http://www.thrivemovement.com/use-your-tv-instead-of-being-used-by-it.blog

let me know what you think.

/tim
Tim Hallen

March 17, 2014, 03:56:42 AMReply #8

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 03:56:42 AM »
Hi Len,
Of course, as you say, it is easier for people to aspire to greater heights of spiritual and moral growth if they have heroic examples to aspire to and  emulate.
And no doubt, the person who has little help, but still grows, by sweat and blood, is worthy of praise.
However, I don't feel it is our place to make a judgement about the praiseworthiness of any soul, on regards to spiritual growth. As only Supreme Spirit really knows what makes any of us tick.
What with all the complications, of Karma, and Enivadew, character traits, and lessons to be learned carried through from previuos incarnations, and what lessons a particular soul is here at school to learn. I believe such a jusgment is almost impossible to accurately make.
It is easier, I believe, to judge the moral worth of a generation, than it is the individual living in it. Like looking at a beautiful Persian rug, one may see very clearly the complete picture from a distance, but when one examines the same picture very closely, the picture is not so well defined, and where the colours that make the pattern begin and end, are not so well defined. If one were to study the individual strands of wool, that make the whole picture, the pattern becomes even less defined, and one may be forgiven, for thinking that there may well be no big picture at all, save that one has already seen from a distance, the complete picture.
Wallowing in the muck, can be by design, like the Torah tale of the Israelites , who spent forty years running round the same mountain, till the wicked generation of the golden calf had died out, and the slaves had been transformed into conquerors. The parallels to our own lives, and spiritual growth are obvious, and need not be stated here. My point being that sometimes, it is by design, or even by subconscious choice, that somebody might be experiencing their "wilderness experience", so to speak.
My life has sucked for a while now, spiritually speaking, I have learned much, but lost even more, camped here in the desert of my own wilderness experience, I find, that even in this, I can still look up at the stars, those luminaries that travelled this desert road before me, for guidance and inspiration.
Its not so bed, being on the desert road, for at least, I am a traveller on the road, at least I know there is a road, and a destination.

Love and light to all of good will..........
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 03:59:47 AM by Enkisfreind »

March 18, 2014, 08:34:08 PMReply #9

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2014, 08:34:08 PM »
However, I don't feel it is our place to make a judgement about the praiseworthiness of any soul, on regards to spiritual growth. As only Supreme Spirit really knows what makes any of us tick.

One makes all kinds of judgements about oneself, others, the world, actions, and so on... and this includes individuals' spiritual growth. Without this judgement, based on a preconceived set of standards, it would be impossible to teach others, ourselves, or even know how to act properly. However, judgement should include compassion, and open-mindedness, allowing for the possibility we may always be wrong or incorrect.  It is not necessary to know the incarnational history of a Soulspirit to judge where they are at now, what they need, what they lack, or where they excel. I would also note that an individual Soulspirit is not merely a thread in the greater tapestry of humanity, but is his or her own tapestry within a greater tapestry, which may be judged without examining all the minute single threads of Karma, Enidvadew, character traits, and single lessons learned and unlearned. A person's overall praiseworthiness, regarding spiritual growth, may in fact be judged by looking at this entire tapestry or makeup of an individual. At least Gwineva, Celestina, and Rowena say so... (All of Chapter 7 in Rowena should be read here, but I could only quote so much.)

Quote from: guest1
A person is good, bad or indifferent because of his personality make-up and should be judged solely on that basis.


Quote from: guest1
You shy away from judging others, claiming your non-judgementalism to be right, and you are ready to believe that all judgements are wrong. The issues are confused and you are like a ship lost at sea without a compass. Your young people, not being taught the difference between right and wrong, are not immoral anymore, they are amoral.

Quote from: guest1
There are those who sit on the fence, who are lukewarm about everything; who are patrons of averageness and judgemental about nothing. They condone, by an attitude of non-condemnation, things they know to be wrong and are anti-nothing and activist against nothing. They constitute the great apathetic mass of the people who sit in pitiable mediocrity at the point of balance on the scales. They are the acceptors of the unacceptable and are generally convinced that their middle path of non-involvement, non-commitment and non-condemnation is the best one. It may be for them, because it panders to their mediocre minds, but for your society it spells disaster.

To rise above this state requires the cultivation of convictions, the establishment of personal standards and codes which are made clear to the world. It means calling a spade a spade, and affirming that according to your standards this is right and that is wrong. Stick hard and fast to your principles and convictions and do not be reluctant to make them known and to defend them. Only thus can you become a positive person. It is the shilly- shalliers who have contributed most to the present deplorable state of your society. Of course, between black and white is an area of grey and with the great majority of people there is an overwhelming mass of greyness and very little black and white, whereas it should be the opposite.

You will often hear the expression, "I am not going to be judgemental", and you can be sure, when you do, that the person expressing this is non-judgemental because he or she has no standards to be judgemental by. Those with a high set of standards cannot help but judge all things in the light of their standards and convictions. They will do this automatically. Without such standards and without convictions, obviously one is in no position to judge anything or anybody, Generally speaking, however, the claim to be non-judgemental is just a convenient way of not having to condemn something of which disapproval is felt.

As you rise out of the mire of mediocrity you will find that many of your former acquaintances will become estranged. They may even accuse you of becoming 'uppish', 'stuck up' or 'pretentious', and this is because they recognise that you are rising above the state which they find compatible and comfortable. You are becoming superior to them.

Yet, as you rise on the positivity scale, so will you notice a widening gap between yourselves and those whose attitudes previously seemed to accord with yours. Selectivity yes, exclusiveness no. Learn to discriminate.

My point being that sometimes, it is by design, or even by subconscious choice, that somebody might be experiencing their "wilderness experience", so to speak.

Subconscious choice is still choice, and it is no one's responsibility but our own to bring that unexamined part of ourselves into the light, and transcend...

If it is by design, I ask, who's design? Are we not willing partners in the manifestation of Creation? If we choose to be but mere threads on another weaver's loom, we have surrendered (at least partially) our Divine inheritance as Children of God, made after His image.

My life has sucked for a while now, spiritually speaking, I have learned much, but lost even more, camped here in the desert of my own wilderness experience, I find, that even in this, I can still look up at the stars, those luminaries that travelled this desert road before me, for guidance and inspiration.
Its not so bed, being on the desert road, for at least, I am a traveller on the road, at least I know there is a road, and a destination.

You are growing, and will get there... get many places in fact! Just do not give up, keep your heart, and learn and practice the tools of Self Mastery. You definitely have one fan and believer in your future and potential!  ;)

*********************************

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In the final equation, Sha'ul, people either "prefer" to wallow where they are or pull themselves out of the muck, as difficult as that can be.
I would also like to add that this may not necessarily be the case.  If people need to experience what others may class as wallowing in muck then this is what they need to experience.  Eventually they will move beyond this state of being, but there may well be a very appropriate reason why this should be experienced for a period of time.  Nor, do I believe, that pulling themselves out of the much to be difficult - unless, of course, one chooses it to be so.

I think we are saying the same thing, Lance. If one needs to experience something for a time, this is where they go, or choose to go. And of course you are correct, it need not be difficult to pull oneself out. Usually that is best understood in hindsight… but remembering that, it can make the next challenge easier to face.

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but I ask you, who is the one that is greater, stronger, and more wise; he who is led by the hand with every advantage, or he who had nothing but acquired everything from the sweat of his brow and blood on his feet?
Both are just as strong (or weak) and wise (or not) as each other.  The task(s) to transcend the so-called tests of either are equal as, I believe are the outcomes or rewards (should one look at this in either light).

It is not simply that you win the game or that a test is passed, value is added or lost in how you win the game, or how you passed a test. One can buy a plane ticket to fly over the mountain, while another can climb the mountain. Both may have reached their destinations on the other side, while only the one who climbed has gained strength, awareness of the mountain and himself, while having an experience of desperation and sorrow, joy and having known what it is to overcome.

Hardly equal, and hardly the same rewards…

Reread the opening post of this thread, which is another similar example… knowledge learned out of a book vs. knowledge seared into the soul, and known with a deep memory. One can win a game or pass a test with each… yet how different are the rewards and final sacrifices…

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I tell you truly, it is the second man that God will favor beyond the stars...
I cannot agree with this statement for two reasons:

  • the level of work for those who have everything is just as difficult (and one could argue moreso) as it is for 'he who has nothing'.
  • this type of thinking denotes a need for someone wealthy to keep others from attaining the same kind of wealth (in its widest concept).  This, in itself, is an age-old tactic to keep the wealthy wealthy and the poor poor.  Take a look about you in today's society; the same game is still being played.

You mistake me in that I am not talking about money. However, we can use money as an analogy to make my point more clearly.

There is nothing wrong with getting rich, or being rich, but how one becomes rich and the lessons that these entail will determine whether you will stay rich. People that come from nothing, but are entrepreneurs, hardworking, and disciplined that rise to wealth generally continue to amass wealth throughout their lives; understanding the value of a dollar while learning the lessons it takes to preserve and grow what they have. On the other side of the coin, the vast majority of those who are born into wealth or win the lottery end up squandering what they have. In the case of lottery winners, on average they end up poorer than what they were before their windfall, often with drug addictions and broken marriages to boot.

Why is this so? The hard fought lessons haven’t been learned. Value, discipline, and responsibility haven’t been learned.

The tests actually do in fact become harder once wealth (in its widest sense) is attained. But these tests have little likelihood of being passed unless the lessons of the poor (and rising entrepreneurship) are learned first, which are, not coincidentally, the lessons taught to the youth in families of multigenerational wealth, as opposed to the youth in families of the nouveau riche.

Learn to crawl before you walk. Learn what it is to be poor before becoming rich. Learn arithmetic before algebra. Learn to climb a mountain before flying over one. (And getting back to the example at the very beginning of this thread) Learn knowledge from within, searing it into your heart and soul, before learning to read what someone else has said in a book.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 08:38:59 PM by Len »

March 19, 2014, 12:18:01 AMReply #10

Offline guest1

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Re: Forgetting Our History
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 12:18:01 AM »
Interesting replies Len.  Thank you.

However:
1.
I didn't refer to money (you did); only to wealth - they are not necessarily one and the same, although money often does play a significant part.  As for the retention of riches?  Look at the Rockafella, Windsor, and Ford families (to name but three) who have gained their riches through debatable means and who have, to this day, kept those riches, and even added to them.  To these, the 'how' is irrelevant, and the only way they will lose their riches will be either by design or through the irresponsible handling of those riches by later guardians.

2.
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And of course you are correct, it need not be difficult to pull oneself out. Usually that is best understood in hindsight… but remembering that, it can make the next challenge easier to face.
That is true... but to understand at the time is to know...  I know.

3.
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It is not simply that you win the game or that a test is passed, value is added or lost in how you win the game, or how you passed a test.
You know my thoughts on winning, losing, passing, failing, and so on.  I do agree with the 'how' though.

4.
Your example leaves out too many variables; or is that all there is to the story? 

5.
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The tests actually do in fact become harder once wealth (in its widest sense) is attained. But these tests have little likelihood of being passed unless the lessons of the poor (and rising entrepreneurship) are learned first, which are, not coincidentally, the lessons taught to the youth in families of multigenerational wealth, as opposed to the youth in families of the nouveau riche.
There will come a time when you will want to experience all of these.  In what order you do so, and in what manner of accomplishment will depend entirely upon how you want to experience these things.  There is no set order, merely the order you impose upon yourself prior to its commencement.

6.
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Reread the opening post of this thread, which is another similar example… knowledge learned out of a book vs. knowledge seared into the soul, and known with a deep memory. One can win a game or pass a test with each… yet how different are the rewards and final sacrifices…
I was not responding to the opening thread but to the last two.  However, "how different are the rewards and final sacrifices..." Usually very different indeed.  The thing is, though, one does not go into reading a book with the expressed intent of experiencing something one would physically go into.  With the book you can obtain the knowledge necessary to give you a chance of success.  In order to succeed though, you need to experience - i.e. put the knowledge to use.  When you combine the two...  Well, I'll leave that up to your imagination.  ;)