Author Topic: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning  (Read 4595 times)

August 05, 2015, 12:42:04 PM

Offline guest1

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Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« on: August 05, 2015, 12:42:04 PM »
Is eccentricity required in the acquisition new spiritual understanding and if so to what degree does that evidence the fact that the righteous path of mankind is forlorn with danger? As it is that eccentricity and uncommonality that is required in our development that leads us to stray from a literally straight path making mankinds path an inherently rocky road. But we warm ourselves together and keep away the predators to establish order and longevity, commonality, similitude. Again though we take that and become fastidious, self-righteous and greedy proving that our path twists, turns and even curls back on itself. Ultimately proving that life's greedy gannets are a measure of the task that befalls. In the words of the immortal Q; "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid. "

August 14, 2015, 12:37:25 PMReply #1

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2015, 12:37:25 PM »
I see we have a philosopher as our newest member, surely someone after my own heart! Welcome!  ;D

Is eccentricity required in the acquisition new spiritual understanding and if so to what degree does that evidence the fact that the righteous path of mankind is forlorn with danger?

Eccentricity is not always required to acquire new spiritual understanding, sometimes just the opposite, in fact. It depends on the situation, the person and their circumstances, and the specific subject to be learned. Certain metaphysical practices and awareness do require a shift in perspective/passion/emotional intensity/eccentricity, and when these paths are first trod upon for the beginner, there are greater or lesser degrees of danger involved. It is wise to tread carefully here, using safe practices and rituals or under a proven system or more experienced guide (at least until a great amount of personal proficiency or mastery is reached!).

As it is that eccentricity and uncommonality that is required in our development that leads us to stray from a literally straight path making mankinds path an inherently rocky road. But we warm ourselves together and keep away the predators to establish order and longevity, commonality, similitude. Again though we take that and become fastidious, self-righteous and greedy proving that our path twists, turns and even curls back on itself. Ultimately proving that life's greedy gannets are a measure of the task that befalls.

Does it really curl back on itself? It certainly appears that way from one perspective, going from stability to chaos and from chaos to stability. But when we return to stability, we have always gained something more than we had than when we last rested. Picture concentric circles (or the shape and movement of solar systems and galaxies). The shape and movement is the same or similar, but it is ever expanding outwards (or inwards). This is the necessary pattern for personal and universal evolution.

For, resting too long in stability or commonality leads to atrophy and weakness, as you allude to. However, remaining too long in chaos or in wild, uncharted territory can result in destruction or madness. Neither one at their extremes is desirable . Each is the cure for the other, in balance, and are appropriate in turns. Do not sleep too long, nor remain awake too long, as a biological analogy... or, once the mountaintop has been reached, rest and make it yours before setting out for the next peak.

In the words of the immortal Q; "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid. "

Great quote! And most applicable to the majority of people in our Age...  ;)

August 14, 2015, 08:25:17 PMReply #2

Offline guest1

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2015, 08:25:17 PM »
Yes it seems that like all things the degree of eccentricity required is contingent. So having, ironically, just used a dictionary to redefine eccentricity for myself i have come across orbital eccentricity and concluded that we are now talking about the perfect orbit in relation to its decaying and ascending partners? And in particularly perspective, in that someone may see a perfect circle or perfect orbit as... perfect where as others may consider a more elliptical orbit to be more satiating. So labouring the point (whatever that is) knowledge, as in the dictionary for example, becomes our datum point (our perfect circle) but does not itself exist without the inner/outer concentric circles of common language and parlance.

So would you ascribe the perfect circle to mastery and the more chaotic elliptical orbit to a less practiced practice? Or as you say is it this process of "moving from chaos to stability and stability to chaos and gaining in the process" that leads us to mastery or is it the process itself that is mastery? In earnest i can think of no true mastery and anyone who claims to have acquired such a thing surely has given up! And with regards to the concept of universal evolution, at what point can we say we have actually "evolved"?!


For, resting too long in stability or commonality leads to atrophy and weakness, as you allude to. However, remaining too long in chaos or in wild, uncharted territory can result in destruction or madness. Neither one at their extremes is desirable . Each is the cure for the other, in balance, and are appropriate in turns. Do not sleep too long, nor remain awake too long, as a biological analogy... or, once the mountaintop has been reached, rest and make it yours before setting out for the next peak.


And here considering this "balance", is that itself not a measure of perfection and like all things, a vice? At what point are you too balanced? So with regards to rest, how long do we rest? a constant value is not appropriate or practical, neither is too much or too little? Proving the original proposition that life is difficult, that virtuosity and righteousness are elusive?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 09:05:58 PM by wsimm101 »

August 14, 2015, 09:57:19 PMReply #3

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2015, 09:57:19 PM »
I hope you won't mind if I respond to your points out of order...

And with regards to the concept of universal evolution, at what point can we say we have actually "evolved"?!

Well, I could simply answer that we are not amoeba or bacteria, fish or chimpanzees. Not to say that I'm fully Darwinian, by any means, but I do think he had a point. Nor do we commonly perform human sacrifice any longer, and the very fact that we have the leisure to contemplate and debate such higher notions is evidence of a higher stage of evolution. I'm quite thankful that we are evolved enough to do so. Not to say that we have fully transcended the Beast, but we have come some ways on this line.

So labouring the point (whatever that is) knowledge, as in the dictionary for example, becomes our datum point (our perfect circle) but does not itself exist without the inner/outer concentric circles of common language and parlance.

I do not think objective reality is contingent upon dictionary definitions or language. In fact, language is not even necessary for ideas or consciousness itself. Language is only an imperfect means to express ideas, consciousness, and objective reality (as dimly as we see it) with others. To paraphrase a quote from the Kolbrin, "The stars would still exist, even if you were blind to see them, or mute to express them." 

And in particularly perspective, in that someone may see a perfect circle or perfect orbit as... perfect where as others may consider a more elliptical orbit to be more satiating...

Some people enjoy ignorance, commonality, sleep... others prefer various forms or greed, brutality, or dominance over others; and I'm sure each satiates those who gravitate towards them for a time... but that is the stage at which they need to be in order to learn their particular lesson(s).

So would you ascribe the perfect circle to mastery and the more chaotic elliptical orbit to a less practiced practice? Or as you say is it this process of "moving from chaos to stability and stability to chaos and gaining in the process" that leads us to mastery or is it the process itself that is mastery? In earnest i can think of no true mastery and anyone who claims to have acquired such a thing surely has given up!

I do not think there is perfection to be found on Earth, or any type of 'perfect mastery' here. But there are degrees of mastery, or proficiency, to be had. I think J.S. Bach was a 'master' of musical composition, and in his day, he and others would have defined him as such. This doesn't mean he didn't continue to improve and expand to ever greater heights, even at his best, but he certainly would still be ranked as a 'master' in comparison with a novice musician learning his chords, or even a 'master' compared with other composers of his day.  The same comparison could be made to other 'master' artists, scientists, or craftsmen throughout history. To deny these levels of proficiency, within oneself or others, is a saddening trend of self-imposed ignorance, worshiping at the politically correct alter of equality and non-judgmental false humility.   

And here considering this "balance", is that itself not a measure of perfection and like all things, a vice? At what point are you too balanced?

This is like asking whether a healthy blood pressure of 120/80 is so healthy as to be a sickness. It is calling health disease, calling virtue vice, proficiency ineptitude... So where does balance become imbalance? When does Bach become so great a composer that his music becomes worse than the most inept novice? The question is self contradictory... but perhaps you have another answer...?

So with regards to rest, how long do we rest? a constant value is not appropriate or practical, neither is too much or too little? Proving the original proposition that life is difficult, that virtuosity and righteousness are elusive?

Gravity is constant. The speed of light is constant. These are physical constant values that seem only to bend or warp with extreme subjective bodies. We, humans, are extreme subjective bodies that tend to (seemingly) warp and distort constant universal values that shine through us. The problem is not in the value, or universal laws; the problem is in ourselves as we distort and pervert them. And this is what makes virtuosity and righteousness elusive. Recognizing this, and slowly shaping ourselves to be our highest possible selves and the most perfect conduits of the Divine, are steps towards Mastery. These steps continue whether we are conscious of them or not, but come more swiftly and cleanly when we are, and with less diversions. (Some people require diversions and seeming regressions, however. And this is a necessary part of their path.)

As for how long one should rest... This would depend on the amount of effort exerted. How long should one rest after a day's work, or after a day on the computer, or after running a marathon?

August 15, 2015, 07:14:04 AMReply #4

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2015, 07:14:04 AM »
With regards to universal evolution I am sure we have ascended far beyond amoebae but our galaxy has also ascended far beyond a cloud of hydrogen gas, are we still to call this evolution? Not to mention that in fact i am doubtful of how far we have actually transcended amoebae, we still propagate ourselves unrelentingly and consume all in our path, we have yet to see the final results of that particular test.


I do not think objective reality is contingent upon dictionary definitions or language. In fact, language is not even necessary for ideas or consciousness itself. Language is only an imperfect means to express ideas, consciousness, and objective reality (as dimly as we see it) with others. To paraphrase a quote from the Kolbrin, "The stars would still exist, even if you were blind to see them, or mute to express them." 


I wasn't referring specifically to the dictionary here, it was more of an illustration. My point was that we need some core, some base or standard with which to begin analysis of reality but we also need the outer reaches of new unlikely experiences. I was trying to point out that as in the relation between common language/colloquialism and standardised language there is a step from order to chaos in which one is contingent on the other. That is to say that the most advanced quantum physicist on this planet still gets some of his inspiration from the arts and culture that surround him. The stars may very well still exist if we did not perceive them but at what point in time and what manner would they be existing?



I do not think there is perfection to be found on Earth, or any type of 'perfect mastery' here. But there are degrees of mastery, or proficiency, to be had. I think J.S. Bach was a 'master' of musical composition, and in his day, he and others would have defined him as such. This doesn't mean he didn't continue to improve and expand to ever greater heights, even at his best, but he certainly would still be ranked as a 'master' in comparison with a novice musician learning his chords, or even a 'master' compared with other composers of his day.  The same comparison could be made to other 'master' artists, scientists, or craftsmen throughout history. To deny these levels of proficiency, within oneself or others, is a saddening trend of self-imposed ignorance, worshiping at the politically correct alter of equality and non-judgmental false humility.   

This is like asking whether a healthy blood pressure of 120/80 is so healthy as to be a sickness. It is calling health disease, calling virtue vice, proficiency ineptitude... So where does balance become imbalance? When does Bach become so great a composer that his music becomes worse than the most inept novice? The question is self contradictory... but perhaps you have another answer...?


Hey, i have an answer for everything Len, I'm a philosopher! But specifically with regards to Bach, I don't know him or his mind but i would say he probably, after mastering his instrument, probably had to go through a progress of regression and self-analysis to create such beautiful music. Indeed once he learnt to play the violin he then had to go and understand the human condition and the nature of our world. I suppose i would use the analogy of an actor learning their lines until they know them by heart but failing to deliver the line with sufficient or appropriate emotion. Or with regards to the blood pressure analogy, to have a blood pressure of exactly 120/80 could be classed as a form of sickness! To achieve such a thing you would need to be sat in an isolated room, never exposed to any stress or strain and constantly observed. Indeed to achieve such a thing would be only for a fleeting moment on these turbulent seas. Not to mention that if a master is to abandon his craft then he will loose his proficiency in it. So with regards to Bach it is very likely that what we are hearing is the ellipse of an eccentric orbit rather than, as it is known for posterity, a perfect unchanging circle. And this is the crux of the issue for me, that we to often perceive perfection in the world and consider it to be eternal when i would say that we are just 'lucky' enough to be on an apex. Indeed it is our duty to extend this apex.


When does Bach become so great a composer that his music becomes worse than the most inept novice?


I had to pick up on this specifically because this is the exact situation we are in today! Most people would consider Bach to be stodgy and outmoded! And would rather listen to some other trash peddled by someone to whom the term inept novice is a compliment!


Gravity is constant. The speed of light is constant. These are physical constant values that seem only to bend or warp with extreme subjective bodies. We, humans, are extreme subjective bodies that tend to (seemingly) warp and distort constant universal values that shine through us. The problem is not in the value, or universal laws; the problem is in ourselves as we distort and pervert them. And this is what makes virtuosity and righteousness elusive. Recognizing this, and slowly shaping ourselves to be our highest possible selves and the most perfect conduits of the Divine, are steps towards Mastery. These steps continue whether we are conscious of them or not, but come more swiftly and cleanly when we are, and with less diversions. (Some people require diversions and seeming regressions, however. And this is a necessary part of their path.)

As for how long one should rest... This would depend on the amount of effort exerted. How long should one rest after a day's work, or after a day on the computer, or after running a marathon?


I would have to say first of all we don't actually know that the speed of light is a constant or what gravity actually is. We only assume based on evidence. However i can agree that they do change relative to our subjective experience. Also i would say in my understanding the human being IS the perfect conduit of the divine, what else can we be? It is, in my personal opinion, just that we cannot accept that the most high must encompass nothingness, failure or destruction. So in a rather bleak conclusion i would say that we need to enjoy our suffering! And i think in a noble, conscious accepting of the horrors that surround us we may begin to be able to transcend them together.

As for rest i suppose it is a great example of how we are powerless over somethings in this world and a universal law that is inescapable?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 07:25:11 AM by wsimm101 »

August 23, 2015, 01:27:45 AMReply #5

Offline guest1

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 01:27:45 AM »
Hi wsimm101, welcome to the forum.

August 23, 2015, 02:34:29 AMReply #6

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 02:34:29 AM »
Some interesting responses here.

Balance - I suppose this depends on the required outcome... for example, an imbalance of hydrogen and oxygen is what is perfectly need for water to manifest itself - an imbalance if seen from a certain perspective, yet perfect in this particular instance.  Gravity, for example, is neither constant nor static, but can be manipulated by both manmade and natural interference, nor is it static as gravity constantly fluctuates - not so much so that we suddenly begin to float off into the heavens...  The speed of light is probably a constant, yet it can be influenced by external variables (as far as we know).

Evolution is merely the measurement of movement through what we may view as understandable change.  However, this is merely the perception from an inefficient 3-dimensional or material and all too very human viewpoint (and a very basic interpretation at that).

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i am doubtful of how far we have actually transcended amoebae, we still propagate ourselves unrelentingly and consume all in our path,
Are we including in this the symbiotic and parasitic relationship here?  Or are we talking something different?

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To paraphrase a quote from the Kolbrin, "The stars would still exist, even if you were blind to see them, or mute to express them." 
An interesting phrase, yet I am at a loss as to how, in the context quoted above, this could be so, especially if there were no way to verify such an existence existing.  If there were no way of experiencing a particular phenomena, like, for example, viewing the stars in space from our planet, then how could such a concept be included in one's reality?  It can't!  [Oops!  How foolish of me.  Of course we can.  Polls, for example, have shown that most of the news we get these days is a staggering 5-15% truth with the rest a mixture of half-truths, innuendo, and outright lies - yet we accept the information from these sources as being real and truthful.

"Truth"; now there's a biggy...

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So with regards to Bach it is very likely that what we are hearing is the ellipse of an eccentric orbit rather than, as it is known for posterity, a perfect unchanging circle. And this is the crux of the issue for me, that we to often perceive perfection in the world and consider it to be eternal when i would say that we are just 'lucky' enough to be on an apex. Indeed it is our duty to extend this apex.
As for the orbits... each is necessary for whatever reason, otherwise why would they be there?  But I wholeheartedly agree that we do need to extend our apexes very much.  What we see is merely an illusion, and we interpret it according to others perceptions - that is, until we begin forming our own and feeling comfortable enough in doing so.

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Also i would say in my understanding the human being IS the perfect conduit of the divine, what else can we be?
Could I amend this to say "...human being IS a perfect conduit..." as I personally believe 'the divine' to be expressed perfectly through all things.



August 23, 2015, 11:14:06 AMReply #7

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 11:14:06 AM »

Balance - I suppose this depends on the required outcome... for example, an imbalance of hydrogen and oxygen is what is perfectly need for water to manifest itself - an imbalance if seen from a certain perspective, yet perfect in this particular instance.  Gravity, for example, is neither constant nor static, but can be manipulated by both manmade and natural interference, nor is it static as gravity constantly fluctuates - not so much so that we suddenly begin to float off into the heavens...  The speed of light is probably a constant, yet it can be influenced by external variables (as far as we know).

Evolution is merely the measurement of movement through what we may view as understandable change.  However, this is merely the perception from an inefficient 3-dimensional or material and all too very human viewpoint (and a very basic interpretation at that).


Well i am going to venture that order and chaos are antecedent to balance and unbalance or to put it another way; one is to many as order is to chaos. That is to say that, to come from a jumble of non-sense to some semblance of order is not so hard as the penumbrae of the individual thing inevitably comes into contact with another and reacts accordingly. We can see it in piles of sand or shoals of fish, it truly is spirit and nature.

As for the speed of light i doubt it is literally constant, only seems so to our limited perception range, but moreover what i meant to say was that there are probably things that can travel faster than light. To assume light is the fastest thing is the mistake i think.

I find your idea of evolution as a kind of measurement intriguing. I have always argued against evolution on the grounds that it is simply a cop-out to say "its all random" seems to me there is a deeper intricacy, even intimacy, between all things we know.


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i am doubtful of how far we have actually transcended amoebae, we still propagate ourselves unrelentingly and consume all in our path,
Are we including in this the symbiotic and parasitic relationship here?  Or are we talking something different?


I suppose here i was alluding more to our general purpose i guess. I was going to say something along the lines of; we, as humans, are here (in my understanding) to preserve the planet and beyond that the Universe. So perhaps that is a higher calling than that of the amoeba but i feel myself offending our brother amoeba! I guess to pose it as a question i was asking, what do we do that amoeba don't do?


An interesting phrase, yet I am at a loss as to how, in the context quoted above, this could be so, especially if there were no way to verify such an existence existing.  If there were no way of experiencing a particular phenomena, like, for example, viewing the stars in space from our planet, then how could such a concept be included in one's reality?  It can't!  [Oops!  How foolish of me.  Of course we can.  Polls, for example, have shown that most of the news we get these days is a staggering 5-15% truth with the rest a mixture of half-truths, innuendo, and outright lies - yet we accept the information from these sources as being real and truthful.

"Truth"; now there's a biggy...


I think the key to understanding this imperceptible perspective is disassociation. We as humans live our lives trapped by the constraints of what we have previously experienced. There isn't much else available to us but sometimes, mostly when you experience something uncommon, you have a moment in which you are outside of your bounds; like a child who has momentarily lost their parents or seeing something unique for the first time. Perhaps the key is not to get caught in the mundane?

As for truth? Well as you say it is a biggie! So i would say... Truth is like gravity? If we assume that truth is on a gradient and not simply that a thing is either true or not true? We can understand that truth can be dependent on perspective? To find fundamental physical truth, as i have always said you need to pass through the eye of your own needle. That is the human condition as experiencer. As for the factual reality of truth, one must be seen as many and many as one. Only in this delineating process can things come to know each other and in many ways knowledge is the path to truth?


As for the orbits... each is necessary for whatever reason, otherwise why would they be there?


Approaching this as esoterically as possible i would liken it to hitting a gong and being surrounded by vibration. Theoretically it should sound different wherever you stand? However each vibration or orbit is necessary to hear the overall sound and moreover inescapable after the gong is hit by the hammer.


Could I amend this to say "...human being IS a perfect conduit..." as I personally believe 'the divine' to be expressed perfectly through all things.


That is a superb amendment. Indeed humanity is one of many perfect conduits, how blessed we are to be so enraptured by the divine.



August 29, 2015, 03:34:07 AMReply #8

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2015, 03:34:07 AM »
Also i would say in my understanding the human being IS the perfect conduit of the divine, what else can we be?

Could I amend this to say "...human being IS a perfect conduit..." as I personally believe 'the divine' to be expressed perfectly through all things.

That which is 'perfect' is beyond flaw, complete in itself, needs and wants for nothing, and never fails in its purpose. This is not a description I can accord to man, or any other observably manifest 'thing'. These are attributes I can conceive of only belonging to God, or the Supreme Spirit, or that which is so close to such a Being as to be immeasurably beyond our experience and understanding.

That we are conduits and reflections of such a Divine force/light/energy, I do not doubt, but in no way are we 'perfect' conduits or reflections. More often, we are as muddy water in which light is swallowed and distorted, or an uncut diamond, which blurs and muddies the light shining upon it, or mid-forged steel, which requires yet more blows from the hammer and anvil to serve its best form and function. Earth, its experiences and our choices in relation to these, are blows of the hammer towards completing the smith-work, shaping the diamond in which to reflect the brilliance of the prism, and calms the waters of Self to the utmost purity and clarity. This is the process of moving towards perfection, or becoming a Master of Life, in which the greatest potential conduit of the Divine is slowly ever made more manifest here. This process works not only through us, but through all 'things', and those on the Soulpath consciously strive towards to work in best alignment with the completion of such processes.

With regards to universal evolution I am sure we have ascended far beyond amoebae but our galaxy has also ascended far beyond a cloud of hydrogen gas, are we still to call this evolution?

Do you not see evolution and universal laws working on and through the organic as well as the inorganic? The Divine penetrates and works through All by some purposes realized, and others less so. So yes, I do consider this evolution...

I am sure we have ascended far beyond amoebae... (but) i am doubtful of how far we have actually transcended amoebae, we still propagate ourselves unrelentingly and consume all in our path, we have yet to see the final results of that particular test.

Well, I guess you are proving my point in that we are not "perfect conduits of the Divine" after all.  ;)

We have certainly made some strides, but there is still some ways yet to go, yes?

what do we do that amoeba don't do?

Well, for one, we have sex...  8) :P , but I'm being cheeky... I can think of MANY other things that we do that amoeba don't, and I know you can too. How would a biologist answer that question? A bigger question is what can we do that monkeys can't? How might a metaphysician answer that question? Attempt to think like one, and you may come up with a couple of answers... ;)

That is to say that the most advanced quantum physicist on this planet still gets some of his inspiration from the arts and culture that surround him...

But specifically with regards to Bach, I don't know him or his mind but i would say he probably, after mastering his instrument, probably had to go through a progress of regression and self-analysis to create such beautiful music. Indeed once he learnt to play the violin he then had to go and understand the human condition and the nature of our world. I suppose i would use the analogy of an actor learning their lines until they know them by heart but failing to deliver the line with sufficient or appropriate emotion.

I guess what you would call the greatest quantum physicist or Bach in progressing in his mastery of music, in taking time for inspiration among arts and culture, or going through a process of regression and self-analysis, as one who was attempting to balance his life, and thereby becoming a better scientist or musician in the process...  ;)

Hey, i have an answer for everything Len, I'm a philosopher!

LOL!  ;D ... I like your style, friend!

Not to mention that if a master is to abandon his craft then he will loose his proficiency in it. So with regards to Bach it is very likely that what we are hearing is the ellipse of an eccentric orbit rather than, as it is known for posterity, a perfect unchanging circle. And this is the crux of the issue for me, that we to often perceive perfection in the world and consider it to be eternal when i would say that we are just 'lucky' enough to be on an apex. Indeed it is our duty to extend this apex.

There are some things that are gained and are not lost...

However, I take your point. It is our duty to extend this apex amongst the gravity, downward pressure, inertia, and challenges along the way. Again, it is not my meaning to say that we are to reach any sort of perceived perfection, merely to reach and strive towards it with all our effort and best understanding. And I think here we have reached a sort of understanding...


When does Bach become so great a composer that his music becomes worse than the most inept novice?


I had to pick up on this specifically because this is the exact situation we are in today! Most people would consider Bach to be stodgy and outmoded! And would rather listen to some other trash peddled by someone to whom the term inept novice is a compliment!

This is merely an example of corruption and ignorance within current culture. This type of view towards Bach or certain modern noise that calls itself music is a distortion of understanding, a gleeful arrogance or pride in not knowing, a wallowing in the mud, as it were... it is a far cry from actual understanding or awareness, and I believe that these 'proud monkeys' do actually sort of sense where they've gone wrong, they merely rejoice in it as an excuse for failure and lack of trying.

I would have to say first of all we don't actually know that the speed of light is a constant or what gravity actually is. We only assume based on evidence.

One could say the same about anything, but I think that is missing the point. I was simply making an analogy, and this is something we know based on our best evidence.

So in a rather bleak conclusion i would say that we need to enjoy our suffering! And i think in a noble, conscious accepting of the horrors that surround us we may begin to be able to transcend them together.

I think you are onto something here, but I wouldn't agree, and don't think you mean we should all become masochists! Please do expand on this line of reasoning...

As for rest i suppose it is a great example of how we are powerless over somethings in this world and a universal law that is inescapable?

Universal law, by its very definition, would be universal and inescapable. But I do think without violating these laws, they may be transcended, and a greater freedom thereby gained, by coming into complete alignment with it...

Balance - I suppose this depends on the required outcome... for example, an imbalance of hydrogen and oxygen is what is perfectly need for water to manifest itself - an imbalance if seen from a certain perspective, yet perfect in this particular instance.  Gravity, for example, is neither constant nor static, but can be manipulated by both manmade and natural interference, nor is it static as gravity constantly fluctuates - not so much so that we suddenly begin to float off into the heavens... 

Concerning balance: you are certainly correct in stating balance is subjective according to certain perspectives of desired outcomes. Yet there is balance. State your desired outcome, and a point of balance may be concluded.

As for gravity, scientists may not know the essence of all that it is, as wsimm101 mentioned, but Newton's law of universal gravitation states that any two bodies in the universe attract each other with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. It is also known as the universal gravitational constant or Newton's constant.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-3/Newton-s-Law-of-Universal-Gravitation

There has been nothing since Newton's day disproving this law. Gravity's constant force is unalterable, but the effects of this force may be manipulated by introducing other forces. But the force itself, regardless of whatever effects are manipulated, remain constant.

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To paraphrase a quote from the Kolbrin, "The stars would still exist, even if you were blind to see them, or mute to express them." 

An interesting phrase, yet I am at a loss as to how, in the context quoted above, this could be so, especially if there were no way to verify such an existence existing.  If there were no way of experiencing a particular phenomena, like, for example, viewing the stars in space from our planet, then how could such a concept be included in one's reality?

Well Lance, once we had no way of knowing or verifying a number of things that affected our existence. Black holes certainly affect our existence (profound affects which we are only beginning to understand the consequences to on ourselves), microscopic organisms can kill us, yet we were once (and still often are) ignorant to their effects on us. Particle waves of energy, of all types, constantly bombard us, altering our bodies, consciousness, and environment, yet our awareness of these powers remains largely dim. And yes, all these things (and many more!) exist and play HUGE parts in our reality regardless of our ignorance. Seems the ancients writing the Kolbrin on their analogy concerning blindness and the stars, may have had a pretty big point after all... something to consider in more depth, at least!

August 29, 2015, 08:46:48 AMReply #9

Offline guest1

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2015, 08:46:48 AM »
Also i would say in my understanding the human being IS the perfect conduit of the divine, what else can we be?

Could I amend this to say "...human being IS a perfect conduit..." as I personally believe 'the divine' to be expressed perfectly through all things.

That which is 'perfect' is beyond flaw, complete in itself, needs and wants for nothing, and never fails in its purpose. This is not a description I can accord to man, or any other observably manifest 'thing'. These are attributes I can conceive of only belonging to God, or the Supreme Spirit, or that which is so close to such a Being as to be immeasurably beyond our experience and understanding.


To borrow the term 'thing-being' from Martin Heidegger, each thing can be perfect in its thing-being. A cup is a perfect cup if it serves tea and never breaks and it's Teflon or something so it stays clean. So i guess it isn't so much about a perfect human, just something that serves a bizarre purpose like a clown. Or even a perfect orbit! The fact is you can't have the word perfect without the word flaw.


That we are conduits and reflections of such a Divine force/light/energy, I do not doubt, but in no way are we 'perfect' conduits or reflections. More often, we are as muddy water in which light is swallowed and distorted, or an uncut diamond, which blurs and muddies the light shining upon it, or mid-forged steel, which requires yet more blows from the hammer and anvil to serve its best form and function. Earth, its experiences and our choices in relation to these, are blows of the hammer towards completing the smith-work, shaping the diamond in which to reflect the brilliance of the prism, and calms the waters of Self to the utmost purity and clarity. This is the process of moving towards perfection, or becoming a Master of Life, in which the greatest potential conduit of the Divine is slowly ever made more manifest here. This process works not only through us, but through all 'things', and those on the Soulpath consciously strive towards to work in best alignment with the completion of such processes.


I think in the forging of the smith-works, the work is in fact mostly its creator or at least its user. If the creation is imperfect could the creator also be not perfect? I think Bill Bailey said it best when he said about 'according to the third law of thermodynamics the whole universe is going into nothing and all human endeavors are pointless..'

I guess it's just a feeling i have really, that a creator wouldn't create without need? In fact the truth is the world is everything it is not. Languages unspoken words can often be the essence of the spoken ones. So i guess i would say when making the divine present in this world one must take caution! Because there can be as much divine retribution as there can be divine purity.


Do you not see evolution and universal laws working on and through the organic as well as the inorganic? The Divine penetrates and works through All by some purposes realized, and others less so. So yes, I do consider this evolution...


I definitely do not see evolution in the physical/inorganic world, i see a process of 'transcendence and includence' as said by Ken Wilbur in 'A Brief History of Everything' and i would even extend that to biological life and say that whatever the process is governing 'organic evolution' it is the same as the one governing inorganic transcendence. Something more like fate or 'the force' from Star Wars! So the word evolution for me is just technical biochemical terminology. As for natural laws i suppose that is more parlance we can use instead of evolution! But as for the Divine working through evolution? I guess i would have to agree but again we would be talking about Divine intervention in biochemistry. I would be willing to accept that their may be many kinds of Divine intervention of sorts but would cut the word evolution out and throw it away!


I am sure we have ascended far beyond amoebae... (but) i am doubtful of how far we have actually transcended amoebae, we still propagate ourselves unrelentingly and consume all in our path, we have yet to see the final results of that particular test.

Well, I guess you are proving my point in that we are not "perfect conduits of the Divine" after all.  ;)

We have certainly made some strides, but there is still some ways yet to go, yes?

what do we do that amoeba don't do?

Well, for one, we have sex...  8) :P , but I'm being cheeky... I can think of MANY other things that we do that amoeba don't, and I know you can too. How would a biologist answer that question? A bigger question is what can we do that monkeys can't? How might a metaphysician answer that question? Attempt to think like one, and you may come up with a couple of answers... ;)


Well i guess beyond basic physiological activity, active chemistry. What do humans really do? We shift resources around but the solar system can do that. We all just mope about pointlessly really. All or actions are self fulfilling, even the good ones in a holistic sense are for the greater good. Even all this philosophising i would say for the most part it is because i enjoy it and any good that comes of it i hope improves peoples lives and even if there is a greater purpose to be served, surely our ancestral brethren the amoebae are enduring that great struggle as we all are? Just because they use mitosis and we use meiosis it doesn't mean you should be prejudice ;D As for monkeys well, I've seen a few!


This is merely an example of corruption and ignorance within current culture. This type of view towards Bach or certain modern noise that calls itself music is a distortion of understanding, a gleeful arrogance or pride in not knowing, a wallowing in the mud, as it were... it is a far cry from actual understanding or awareness, and I believe that these 'proud monkeys' do actually sort of sense where they've gone wrong, they merely rejoice in it as an excuse for failure and lack of trying.


Yes i do agree there is lots of corruption and ignorance within current culture but you have to remember that the youthful rebellious striving can go hand in hand with pride and arrogance which can lead to envy so due to those darn universal laws again a lot of people can end up being lead astray. But like all herd animals people are easily coerced by predators and pied pipers. I would however point out, not in a critical way but just as an observation, that pigs wallowing in their mud can be quite content!

Quote from: guest1

Quote from: guest1

So in a rather bleak conclusion i would say that we need to enjoy our suffering! And i think in a noble, conscious accepting of the horrors that surround us we may begin to be able to transcend them together.


I think you are onto something here, but I wouldn't agree, and don't think you mean we should all become masochists! Please do expand on this line of reasoning...


Well again i would have to point out that in a way we are all masochists! As they say you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs! But yes generally i do feel that we can all be a bit escapist when it comes to our suffering. Perhaps because we need to stand tall in life and cannot tolerate such a disquieted thing as suffering.

Quote from: guest1

Universal law, by its very definition, would be universal and inescapable. But I do think without violating these laws, they may be transcended, and a greater freedom thereby gained, by coming into complete alignment with it...


Yes i would agree with that entirely. Understanding such intricate or unlikely complexions and aligning or misaligning certain grand principles we can definitely improve our lot in life.

Quote from: guest1

Quote from: guest1

Balance - I suppose this depends on the required outcome... for example, an imbalance of hydrogen and oxygen is what is perfectly need for water to manifest itself - an imbalance if seen from a certain perspective, yet perfect in this particular instance.  Gravity, for example, is neither constant nor static, but can be manipulated by both manmade and natural interference, nor is it static as gravity constantly fluctuates - not so much so that we suddenly begin to float off into the heavens...


There has been nothing since Newton's day disproving this law. Gravity's constant force is unalterable, but the effects of this force may be manipulated by introducing other forces. But the force itself, regardless of whatever effects are manipulated, remain constant.


I would have to agree with Lance and say that gravity is neither constant nor static. I would say that gravity varies depending on what mass you are talking about, there is literally more gravity around a larger mass, as if it were soup. If you want the truth i will give it to you! Good and evil are like gravity, they hang around us like gravitons! You can pass particles of good and evil around just like you can pass stray electrons with a stranger!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:31:28 AM by wsimm101 »

August 29, 2015, 04:13:33 PMReply #10

Offline guest1

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2015, 04:13:33 PM »
I'm going to have to bow out of this thread for now, as it appears we have shifted from philosophy to sophistry, in the Platonic sense of the term.

( "[Sophism is]...the art of contradiction making, descended from an insincere kind of conceited mimicry, of the semblance-making breed, derived from image making, distinguished as portion, not divine but human, of production, that presents, a shadow play of words—such are the blood and the lineage which can, with perfect truth, be assigned to the authentic Sophist." -- Plato, The Sophist [May do some good for everyone reading this thread to read this book by Plato.])

For example (to give two examples from many here), to passively dismiss Newton's law of universal gravitation, or deny the differences in evolution from amoeba to humans is pure sophistry. If it is not, I look forward to seeing, with your help, the entire fields of physics and biology be upended and rewritten from the ground up, and your presence among the highest level of these scientists would serve the world better by you instructing them rather than us. I hardly imagine that as being the case, however, and look forward more to actual truth seeking than word games and circular logic; or relativistic, meaningless, conclusions which serves no one and gets no where.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 04:15:47 PM by Len »

August 30, 2015, 07:10:38 AMReply #11

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 07:10:38 AM »
Ok Len thanks for your input, i really enjoyed it. I don't come on forums talking philosophy that often but it has been fun. I think all philosophy can end up a little sophistic and solipsistic in the modern age because philosophy is left to the realms of pure speculation, all the sciences no longer want our input and even morality\ethics is more in the realm of sociology and religion today.  However i would point out that as the philosophers of the east have said; you must know yourself before you can know anything else.

As the original post alluded to it is very easy to become sophistic in all walks of life. To pluck an example from the air, the hand of God is still a hand. What else are hands used for other than picking things up and moving them around? I'm not trying to change your point of view. Simply addressing what i would liken to a kind of static universe theory regarding the Divine. Especially regarding the seven heavens, this is something i have heard mentioned in Christianity, by Mormons and even appears in the Quran. That heaven is divided up into so many sections seems to me that the lords job, as mentioned in the mosaic religions, of sectioning out mankind into different sub-categories implies a far more bureaucratic divinity than is implied with such a platitude as God is perfect or wants for nothing. In fact it would seem to me that that is a kind of Sophism. I can't think of any reason for God to need to be perfect or even that he/she ought to be.

If we do, as i believe, live in a finite imperfect universe that requires our input to make it perfect then why do we need a perfect creator for that? What is so noble about an eternal God? As the Kabbalists say; the candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. What is wrong with the concept of a God that casts it's ethereal body unto the wind to give us life? In fact it would seem to me that Jesus was decidedly imperfect? Please understand i have no denomination of religion and don't have an rigid structure of belief and in that sense am a seeker and content in my seeking. I don't understand your beliefs or traditions so am sorry if i have offended you in any way. However one of my tenants of belief is that their is no higher respect for God than to seek him/her out in understanding so that we can come to recognise the divine in our selves or vice versa.

But still i would like to thank you Len and the Culdian Trust for giving me this forum of discussion. I will endeavor to make my posts more relevant to this website.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 07:22:18 AM by wsimm101 »

August 30, 2015, 01:55:36 PMReply #12

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 01:55:36 PM »
I think your posts are very much relevant to this website, wsimm101, and I hope you continue with us for a very long time to come! :)

You have so much to comment on... the analogy of the 'hand' of God, the supposed perfection of Jesus, the question of perfection in general, and on and on... I really think all of these subjects deserve their own threads here to develop more fully and not get lost in the shuffle. Focusing on one subject at a time would help for a cleaner, more focused dialogue, and most certainly would assist the casual reader following along!

About my comments on Sophism, a little bit of it is inescapable and even helpful in debates and dialogue, but at a certain point it simply crosses into the absurd, and further discussion becomes lost in valueless and meaningless twaddle while we only play at philosophy, as even the most common and agreed upon terms and concepts go off the rails. This is the only structure of 'belief' of mine you have thus disturbed, as it can make for an ungainly and not serious dialogue, which can potentially derail purposefulness towards the search for Truth.  My comments above on 'balance' might apply here... ;)

I like you. I see no malevolence or cynical deception in you. And I see a lot of honest passion and potential, which I would love to see best realized here, on whatever subjects or interests tug at you most.

Respectfully, I ask you to stay focused and on track, while attempting to limit sophistry to areas of honest necessity. Again, you are a most welcome addition here...   :)

September 12, 2015, 07:14:26 AMReply #13

Offline guest1

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 07:14:26 AM »
Once i tried to chat a girl up at a nightclub by talking about the meaning of existence, God etc. and she accused me of pretty much the same thing you have ha! I would have to say at the moment i am just bored, fed up perhaps. To muse of the Universe and the Kosmos with our feeble human minds is bound to lead to some degree of procrastination and even confusion. And we can be accused of arrogance as well because we cannot understand things, we have to stand over them and look with timeless eyes and that leaves little room for the whims of mankind. In fact it perplexes me how we are so bound by the mundane.

September 16, 2015, 10:00:56 PMReply #14

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Re: Hi, general philosophy & reasoning
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2015, 10:00:56 PM »
In fact it perplexes me how we are so bound by the mundane.

Well, we have bodies! And these bodies partake of a limited sensory experience that demand maintenance and continued attention. To use these mundane bodies, and to keep them functional within a mundane realm, it is essential that our scope of awareness be limited to the extent that survival and perpetuation of the race is paramount. For everyone to have a continuous, universal perspective, first, would literally ‘blow’ our minds to the point of overload and death, but also, much of the race would be so ‘blissed out’ and unconcerned with temporal existence that the race would soon die off due to negligence and bodily apathy. (Universal understanding is the apex of awareness, and an apex must have a base to build up to it. Think of a pyramid, and once you have grasped that symbolism, contemplate on the Michaels Cross, the symbol at the top of this webpage, being the visual logo of the Culdian Trust. ;) )These conditions are essential for our race’s survival, and for any of us to have this unique experience and adventure here, we must accept such conditions.

This doesn’t mean we should accept them passively, however. It is very important that we first take care of our mundane responsibilities; towards our survival and physical security, and to those similar responsibilities to family and society. Once these things are ‘balanced’ and mastered, we can look to overcoming/transcending the ‘gravity’ of gross matter. Thinking and philosophizing is a great way to go about this, as is delving into the study of the physical sciences. With these, we learn how to live and think better, and can manipulate our environments as gods. But… these things alone are empty in the end, aren’t they? When thought, logic, science, etc. are ends in themselves, they lead us in circles, resting in no absolute Truth, nor do they give absolute meaning. It is one thing to accumulate facts, quite another indeed to behold Truth.

“Unborn Friends of the future, can mere words describe the bright hued beauty of a sunset, or the pale misty loveliness of a fragile moonbeam to a man born blind? Of course not. Even so, no feeble words of mortal man can describe things originating in the Sphere of Divinity so that misconception and misunderstanding are not possible. Words are servants of the fallible mortal sphere and when called upon to serve a realm of greater things prove inadequate.” – The Kolbrin, The Prologue to the Bronzebook

“Mortal knowledge is circumscribed by mortal ignorance, and mortal comprehension is circumscribed by spiritual reality. It is unwise for mortal man to attempt the understanding of that which is beyond his conception, for there lies the road to disbelief and madness. Yet man is man and ever fated to reach out beyond himself, striving to attain things which always just elude his grasp. So in his frustration he replaces the dimly seen incomprehensible with things within his understanding. If these things but poorly reflect reality, then is not the reflection of reality, distorted though it may be, of greater value than no reflection at all?” – The Kolbrin, The Book of Creation, Chapter 1

“…I have the assurance of certainty. What I have can be any man's if he is prepared to suffer and endure as I did. I make no claim to having received illumination as a gift, or as a reward of righteousness. I received it because I toiled and suffered for it. I paid for it in anguish and austerity, I deprived myself of worldly pleasures and comforts for spiritual knowledge. Do you expect to obtain what I paid for so dearly, for nothing? To know Truth you must accept my word or follow the road I trod. You have the choice…

So wonderful is the state of a newly awakened soulspirit, so delightful the experience of sudden realisation, that none who has known it will ever forget. None will ever find words adequate to describe it to others. There is no thought except a deep awareness of life, of being. There is a sense of deeper reality than that of ordinary consciousness. Faith in the reality of the soulspirit then gives way to certainty and assurance, for how can any man doubt the greatest experience of his life?” – The Kolbrin, The Book of the Silver Bough, Chapter Three & Chapter Nine

Rational based philosophy, science, logic, contemplation, etc. are tools towards an end, not an end in themselves. They must be used at their proper time and for their understood purpose, and when it is desired that a particular desire cannot be fully satisfied with these tools, others must be used in their place, more befitting the job at hand. One does not use a hammer to paint a wall, nor a brush to pound a nail. Neither does one use a microscope or laboratory to contemplate the profundity of Love, nor use a pocket calculator to figure universal equations. As long as you think from a temporal state, how can you reach an omnipresent perspective?

To take the next step, one must do what sages from time immemorial have done. You must begin with becoming aware of every aspect of your being, mastering and balancing those aspects, and finally step within yourself to the core, quieting the chatter of the brain, and in the silent eternity of your deepest self, reach out beyond yourself and this world.

It is an experiential science, this practice of metaphysics; not one that can be simply rationalized from an armchair. The Soulspirit must be experienced, not merely explained. Your own logic says so, for how can an eternal and complete existence be grasped by a finite brain or broken words? 

So, here is the crossroads for you wsimm101:

You must learn to be satisfied with all the bounty of this Earth, accept it and your limitations… and in doing so not attempt to venture beyond in thought or deed that which you know is reserved for the gods… And, in all seriousness, there can be a kind of peace with this realization and acceptance.

…or…

You put aside all comfortable and familiar surroundings, and take a leap of faith into the unknown, and follow in practice and deed the path of the sages. It is the hardest and most dangerous path to walk on this Earth, but its rewards put to completion and fulfillment all rewards. Duly heed though the bolded warning of the Kolbrin quote above, “It is unwise for mortal man to attempt the understanding of that which is beyond his conception, for there lies the road to disbelief and madness.”

In either case, you have a choice to make. But too long on the fence will dry and whither your Soul, hardening you into a hateful cynic, and a miserable man. Stay not too long in that place…