Author Topic: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall  (Read 10354 times)

March 12, 2013, 05:08:06 PMReply #15

Offline guest1

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2013, 05:08:06 PM »
Ding ding ding... That is the sound of a very large bell being rung, Rex!!!

March 12, 2013, 05:08:59 PMReply #16

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2013, 05:08:59 PM »
Quote from: guest1
Yes off topic, I do not mean to offend you with anything i have posted in any way leonard, (this is just my view) if i have, my apologies  :)

quote

Interesting material, which begins to explain the female relationship with the Divine, but not fully I think...

Could you please elaborate

March 12, 2013, 05:09:46 PMReply #17

Offline guest1

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2013, 05:09:46 PM »
You haven't offended me at all Heremaia. On the contrary, your posts thus far have been educational, illuminating, and an overall wonderful addition to the group. I for one, hope to see you continue with us as you have so much to share.  :)

As to elaboration, read the quote Rex shared by Abdrushin up thread for starters. I couldn't say it much better than that, although I do plan on elaborating further on the other questions I first raised as this discussion more fully develops.

March 12, 2013, 05:10:21 PMReply #18

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2013, 05:10:21 PM »
Quote from: guest1
Thanks Leonard, I read the Abdrushin post, and i do agree to a certain extent, but i think some of that responsibility for the way things are now, is also because of man, man and women are one unit, if there is a fault/weakness in the women, then it is man that has allowed that fault/weakness to live and flourish, if man was more resolute in dealing with himself, surely he would have the required skill, in dealing with the fault/weakness in women.

What im trying to say, is we should not seperate ourselves between man and women even thou we are different, that difference is for a purpose, and if that purpose is not seen, who is to blame but man?

March 12, 2013, 05:10:45 PMReply #19

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2013, 05:10:45 PM »
The purposes of the differences between man and woman are not only clearly seen, but are constantly elaborated upon by the great sages of every known cultural tradition in history. It is only now, in our modern era, that obscures these beautiful contrasts, rendering our birthright into a sterile and sexless "unit".

And while man has his share of blame for a great number of errors and evils, to say that man could deal with the faults of woman if he only dealt with himself strikes me as a bit chauvinistic.

The golden ages of mankind placed women on a pedestal and taught that women were the keepers of the highest knowledge. If this is true, how could woman, being in a naturally superior position spiritually and otherwise, be knocked off this pedisdal except by woman herself? Not only is that the common sense and logical explanation, it is also what the ancient myths describe as what occurred.

And if the above is true, who else but woman herself can return her to the lofty heights of her true nature but she herself, from which she has "fallen"?

The True Man kneels at the feet of his Goddess...

March 12, 2013, 05:11:21 PMReply #20

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2013, 05:11:21 PM »
Quote from: guest1
“It is far easier to be a weakling than to be a Real Man. Were the Earth less harsh or the circumstances of life less austere, man would destroy himself before the shrine of the languid goddess. Only Real Men can with safety destroy the tangled forests and wilderness of Earth and make from them gardens, but will those who inherit the gardens be Real Men? The law decrees that they must be, or the wilderness will reclaim its own.”

I always found that passage about the languid godess quite interesting in the Kolbrin. Is it implying that weren't the earth as harsh then man would become too inclined to the feminine side and thus bring his downfall? Aren't we seeing that right now, an excacerbation of femininity in our world with the consequent social problems we're experiencing? I think femininity is highly powerful in shaping society but it can only do so positively when applied in its correct sphere. If it gets out of control then you get some very nasty results.

Anyway the Kolbrin's perspective on all this is found on the Maya and Lila (or Maeva and Lilith in Gwineva) story.

"Once all men were dark and hairy and in those days woman was tempted by the strength and wildness of the beast which dwelt in the forest, and the race of man was defiled again.

Therefore, the Spirit of God was wrathful against woman, for hers was the responsibility to reject the beast within and without, that she might bring forth children of the light to walk in the light; for in man there is beast and god, and the god walks in light and the beast walks in darkness.

Now, because of the wickedness that was done, there are among men those who are the Children of the Beast, and they are a different people. The race of man alone was punished, for the beast acted according to its nature. In man the beast and god strive to decide whether he shall take his place among the gods that live or the beasts that die, and woman, in her weakness, betrayed him to the beast.

Men struggle daily with the beast and wrest their living from the soil, their day being encompassed with strife and toil. So women bring forth children with suffering, and because they are frail their husbands rule over them. Man is conceived in the womb of woman and she brings him forth to life. Therefore, when God raised man up from among the beasts, choosing him as His heir and endowing him with an immortal spirit, He placed a veil over the portals of life. This, that woman should not forget she is unlike all other living creatures and the trustee of a divine mission. For a woman not only gives life to a mortal being, she also bears a spark of divinity to Earth, and there can be no greater responsibility."

http://thekolbrin.com/kolbrin_b2c1.html

March 12, 2013, 05:11:51 PMReply #21

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2013, 05:11:51 PM »
Quote from: guest1
the urn of ancient mysteries,the gardal of the egyptians,and the sacred craters of all religions represent the female reproductive organ and the generation of life. therefore woman was capable of reproducing life initially created from the Creator, making her goddess of early cultures. through ages man with greater strength and thirst for power of dominion created a more complex system which we follow today. in reading many stories of the Fall,it would be quite easily shifted if the author were woman,one should know 1200 years ago catholic priests were allowed to marry,and nan is his wisdom ended that too, and today woman is the only way to recreate what the Creator created...

March 12, 2013, 05:13:00 PMReply #22

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 05:13:00 PM »
Quote from: guest1
A Waitaha perspective....

The Haputanga
The impregnation

The Ancient grandmothers developed practices associated with pregnancy, and accompanying ritual and forms, that were employed in the whanau(family) and hapu(tribe). The elders kept all of these memories alive to enable and empower the individual and the community in their development, and the development of the all important mokopuna(grandchild).

To every expectant mother in the first twenty-four weeks of her pregnancy, the mother and grandmothers had several responsibilities. They were to ensure that the expectant mother was made safe, and that she was taught to change her daily rhythms, such as waking up early in the morning, and to observe the stars, to drink lots of fresh water, and to select the star for her baby. She was taught the songs of life from her beginnings. She was told how to care for her baby. She was told often how she was loved and was important to the whanau(family).

While this entire programme was being observed and carried out by the grandmothers and mothers, the grandfathers and fathers were busy watching and recording all the signs and portents in the land, river, sea and sky. Everything was noted and discussed in the Wananga(house of learning).

All these sequences of events were accorded a natural passage in time, and every expectant mother had her time in the universe, so to speak. It was a celebrated time of love, laughter, care, tears of happiness and, sometimes, of sadness.

This time in the universe was accorded to the expectant mother because she too was taking her role as a creator. She was now part of what our people understood as being the creator network, a continuous thought line from the very first birth in the nation to this most auspicious time in her and the nations's life. She was seen to be using her god-like gift of creating a life form or forms within herself.

And as her grandmothers and mother before her, this new mother has now to become the repository of all the experiences that the matriarchal schools have collected over the thousands of years of tribal memory.

Some of the whispered words were allowed to sail free, others were kept as fond memories, while still others were held onto with all the young mother's strength. In essence, the young mother became the point where past and present information was sifted carefully and taken with her into the future. Then, in another future point in time, it was handed across to the next creator in the mother/grandmother network.

The Grandmothers of waitaha saw that the gift of the spirit at birth occurred in seven stages:

Te Kunenga The complete act of fertilisation and germination
Te Mohiotanga The gaining of knowledge during pregnancy, te haputanga
Te wairuatanga The collection of the spirit from the star houses
Te whanautanga The birth of the baby in the physical and spiritual
Te otinga tinana The completion of the life in the physical
Te koru Hokianga The return to the spiral journey again
Te wairua atu The return of the spirit to the spirit house

In all of these stages, the elders saw withn the birthing process the replication of the original birthing of the universe. With this insight into the sacred process, our elders gave the birthng of the individual the highest of the sacred rituals of the wananga.

Many of the births at the time of the foundation of the nation here in Waitangi-ki-Raro saw the children being born to the seventy-two original grandmothers, and then being matched and cross matched with their generation to give the establishment of the pattern some of its original seeding genes. This then became the responsibility of the 'spider singers', to keep the trails of the moko into and out of the resulting family matches.

The total pattern was jealously guarded to ensure that he bloodlines were kept as close as possible to the ancient patterns. It was the grandmothers' legacy of knowing that every individual born in to the family and community gave the community its legacy of survival into the future. The teachers of the wananga kept the records of the babies born into the Maramataka, the calendar of the moon, and the year, and accumulated the general attributes observed over thousands of years of the mokopuna who were born into the particular months. This was to enable the future teacher to provide the foundation knowledge for the mokopuna.

Maramataka was divided into twelve moon houses, or Whare o Marama.

On special occasions, there was brought into being a thirteenth moon house. This was done to absorb, te kai i, the extra time that the elders noticed was being brought about when Papatuanuku(Earth) travelled in her yearly cycle around Te Ra.

Whispers of Waitaha ~ Traditions of a Nation


quote Leonard

And while man has his share of blame for a great number of errors and evils, to say that man could deal with the faults of woman if he only dealt with himself strikes me as a bit chauvinistic.

All i am trying to say is that man must take some responsibility for women's welfare, for is not a down fall of women a down fall for man?

what effects one effects the other

Kolbrin quote

MY daughters, remember your attributes and consider your estate. You can either be the instrument of good to inspire man to great heights of achievement, or be the instruments of evil to degrade him and bring his manhood into disrepute.

would that not be true in a reverse role? Do men also have the capability to inspire women?

A person/individual is effected by there environment, i am only asking if there was something that man could have done, to make the environment more encouraging for women at the point of time of the fall, to enable her not to fall?

True it does come down to the women herself as a individual to make the necessary changes to regain back the glory lost, but is not the union of man and women, represented by marriage, a union of two individuals into one bond, would not the man have a part to play even if it was just in a supporting role.

Kolbrin quote

The power of pro-creation exists in both man and woman, though the power manifests differently in each. It is one power with two aspects, the nature of which is not easily described. The ancients called it the 'twofold ray' and referred to an active and a passive side: one, they said was lighter than the other. The reaction of the two aspects to each other expresses itself in the interplay of love. The compelling force is also twofold, expressing itself in a lower and hight form.

I guess i said what i said, because on some deep down level, i hope to have the capability to set the example for my own partner, to be her inspiration in making the right choices, i did not mean to sound chauvinistic  :)

March 12, 2013, 05:13:28 PMReply #23

Offline guest1

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 05:13:28 PM »
Agree with all you said there, Heremaia.  :)

And of course we could have a thread dealing with the man, but due to recent discussion, I thought a thread tying woman in with these issues was timely. This type of concentrated focus helps to more distinctly show where we've gone wrong in society.

While the man can and should be the woman's support and champion, it will be the unique power of woman to initiate the next shift of eras, a return to balance. That she knows what this entails is all important, and should not all be seen as an unfair burden, but rather the highest of honors to the Divine aspect of her nature too long ignored and forgotten.

April 04, 2013, 05:32:45 AMReply #24

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2013, 05:32:45 AM »
Quote from: guest1
Heremia, I strongly advise you, that if you have not already , you should read The Lost Book of Enki, by Zecharia Sitchen

Also, Isreal, was similar in ancient times as it is today, only there was a lot more forest, before the Romans cut them all down.

April 04, 2013, 05:33:23 AMReply #25

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2013, 05:33:23 AM »
Quote from: guest1
I don't feel the questions can be answered with one event, or even a couple events. More like a sort of slow heating the frog in the pan of water.

The following is a THEORY. I’m not trying Insinuate, (Suggest or hint (something negative) in an indirect and unpleasant way.) If I seem angry it is not directed towards anyone here. I’m angry because I feel that possibly I’ve been lied to all my life, and I’m angry for all people, especially women, including myself. It’s not meant to disrespect any of you or beliefs that you have. I respect you and whatever you choose to believe. I’ve chosen to not rule anything out. There’s a lot more to this theory, but my efforts were to try to keep it as short as possible.

Was there miscegenation, (The interbreeding of people of different racial types) ? How about interbreeding between Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon, (early modern human). I believe it began with the rape of Cro-Magnon by Neanderthal. You end up with a whole new type- looks much like Cro-Magnon, maybe even more attractive, but a much more ruthless materialistic predator on the inside. We know it wasn’t just rape. We continued to breed with them. Group Decision? I have no idea. But being that we were a loving, generous, caring, inclusive type of people I’ll bet it was.

So what else did this new creature have that was appealing to Cro-Magnon? This new predator knew how to get what it wanted. It used charm and manipulation to ruthlessly plow it's way through life, leaving a trail of broken hearts and shattered expectations. It played on the weakness of Cro-Magnon. This includes the weakness of men as well as women. Your seductress, our big strong man. Remember they look just like us, maybe lacking a little something on the inside, but the outside probably makes up for that.

There again is where I see both male and female of Cro-Magnon were duped. So how was this the women's fault? Maybe she was choosing them to mate with. That certainly would have caused some problems in the early modern human man world. She’s the one who gives birth. The male Cro-Magnon can mate with all the mixed breed race he wants, but he can’t have a baby. Do we even know for sure they knew that the act of sex made a baby? I’m sure they figured it out sooner or later, but maybe not just yet when this happened.

So much for the Cro-Magnon females great intuition huh? Well, she was pretty darn stupid for choosing the new guys, and bringing these nasty little predators who look just like us into the world. Right? But she didn’t have the wisdom to discern the difference until it was to late. Is this a flaw? You gain wisdom by experience, observation, etc. Having never dealt with a wolf in sheeps clothing how could she have known? The new species probably looked more like her own kind, with an even added attraction. He knew what women liked and charmed his way in, because he was part predator.

Do you see where knowledge was gained? Some of the knowledge of this mix may have been very good to prepare for what comes next. Please note that I said “some”. Could we have survived through the next events without it? I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not. We know that Neanderthal didn’t make it, and if we continue in this rule-by-thugs, dog eat dog society, we won’t survive either. But the mixed race survived, and so did Cro-Magnon, (early modern human).

Enter the Serpent, and very possibly the loss of some knowledge. It’s my opinion that all of Earth was Eden, or most of it. Who is this serpent? Maybe the question should be What Was The Serpent? Enter your destroyer. I’m talking big, not one area, but worldwide. Some say it’s possible Venus was a comet. Either way it was a large comet, or debris from some other celestial event. Most of Eden was eliminated, and many of the people living on it. Thrown out of Eden by a really angry God. That doesn't work or me. Food was everywhere growing free for the taking prior to the Serpents entry. But now we had to fight for it, search for it, war over it, kill for it. Who was better at doing that? The new species of the mix who would probably become most of the leaders, rulers, future kings.

The new species, and the patriarchal rule by the more clever manipulating new race of beings puts the lid on the Goddess, the woman, her intuition, wisdom, worship of life, nature, birth, rebirth etc. Time became linear, no longer cyclical. Some say keeping time began at that point. “So much for her intuition, wisdom and knowledge. Look at the fine mess worshipping the feminine brought about. She didn’t see this coming? She didn’t see that the wrath of God would be brought down to destroy everything?” Bingo, she’s blamed for the whole mess. Her fault, don’t listen to her, keep her quiet, put her in her place, cover her up, make her invisible, until you need her that is. If you believe in a Feminine Goddess, rebirth, the moon, the sun, the earth or anything other than the new one Male God you will be killed, hunted down, persecuted, converted. What did they do to the Shamanic women? They burnt ten of thousands at the stake as witches. What was gained by that? They got rid of the competition, and took her wealth, land, whatever there was.

The what can she do to regain status question is blowing my mind. Given this theory all I could even think of doing would be to try to open eyes as to what may have happened, and that we should rethink a few things. Throw out the whole theory if you must, but please share any theory you know of, and how we man and woman come together again with mutual respect for each other. This isn’t working, and the blame game isn’t passing the truth test for me.

April 04, 2013, 05:33:45 AMReply #26

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2013, 05:33:45 AM »
Quote from: guest1
Good post Diane. Seems like we still struggle with the same issues that we did back in the ancient times.

April 04, 2013, 05:34:14 AMReply #27

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2013, 05:34:14 AM »
Diane said, "we should rethink a few things".

Such as?

Men and woman can’t even make the commitment to stay married to one another any longer…

Perhaps it IS TIME, well past time, to remember who is to blame: Ourselves… all of us! And we can start by looking in the mirror.

And that means looking at the faults of our own selves, our own relationships, our own families, our own communities, our own culture, our own race, our own sex, and our species as a whole. All of us should see that major faults and corruptions lie in each one of these units and collectives.

Until woman can say how she has fallen, or man can say how he has fallen… we cannot even begin to return humanity to its ideal…

April 04, 2013, 05:34:35 AMReply #28

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2013, 05:34:35 AM »
Quote from: guest1
It is time for many things my friend, unfortunately this doesn't seem to be translating into any materialization of these needful things.

April 04, 2013, 05:35:20 AMReply #29

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Re: Woman, Wisdom, and the Fall
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2013, 05:35:20 AM »
We can learn the easy way or the hard way… BUT WE WILL LEARN. That, I can promise.